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burritocannon

Junior Member
Registered Member
The requirement was fundamentally about numbers as much as capability.
tejas has no capability though. its a tiny dink of a plane. r-73s look massive on it. no matter what they say it's obvious the iaf doesnt actually like the type when the chips are on the table.

the whole indian obsession with squadron count is absurd. they're not under any real military threat and they're literally squandering(-ed, its honestly already too late) their golden hour to scrap and rebuild their forces anew.
 
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Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
Not sure why they're still persisting with Tejas. They may have been better off going with the Gripen, as it could likely have been inducted in greater numbers and helped alleviate the squadron shortage.

The latest Gripen E/F is also firmly in the 4.5-generation league, with modern avionics, sensors & weapons integration already in place.
Throwing out domestic aircraft at a high stage for a sake of absolutely similar foreign one?
This is something UK would do, not anyone else.
The Gripen is a bad fit for what India needs. Sure its specs are a good match for Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A, but the Tejas is also a bad fit for what India needs so that's not much of an argument. I think that Rafale is pretty much the best that India can hope for even though it's way overpriced, and they'll take forever to show up.
Tejas 1A(or Gripen) is absolutely crucial exactly for India - it's the only way to fill reinforced forward airfields, and give IAF at least a pretence to maintain their legally mandated posture.
Their problem isn't LCA, LCA is great fit. Their problem is they seriously need survivable forward-deployed IADS. Which they don't really do.
tejas has no capability though. its a tiny dink of a plane.
Being tiny is a pure advantage for a plane, mainly intended to do cued intercept or light strike.
The only downside of it being small is Indian obsession to stuff Astra mk.1 into it. It's a bit big for the plane(meaning unnecessary coefficients), without corresponding performance; should've really just brought Derby-ER. What it needs though is either meteor or astra mk.3.
 
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burritocannon

Junior Member
Registered Member
the gripen has no shot because every time it matters, aka a gripen sale comes in conflict with american business, the us simply clenches the supply of f404s and saab croaks.
the very same choke that has crippled the tejas mk1a.

it goes without saying that the us is not interested in promoting indigenous capability. the tragedy is that it seems neither do indians.

Being tiny is a pure advantage for a plane
it's not. don't even try, you've already discredited yourself because there's no such thing as pure advantage in aircraft design.
 
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4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's precisely my point. Tejas was never intended to compete with Rafale-class aircraft. The whole concept behind the LCA program was to replace the large MiG-21 fleet & eventually help offset the retirement of other legacy platforms such as the MiG-23s, MiG-27s, & Jaguars, thereby maintaining squadron strength.

The requirement was fundamentally about numbers as much as capability. Unfortunately, decades later, the IAF is still grappling with a squadron shortfall while many of those legacy aircraft have already retired or are approaching retirement. That's why the discussion keeps returning to force levels.

One can debate whether Gripen would have been the ideal choice, but had India opted for a mature platform like the Gripen earlier, the squadron situation today might have been considerably better. The Gripen was already an operational 4.5-generation fighter with an established production line, potentially allowing faster induction & larger fleet numbers. Instead, the IAF has spent years trying to bridge the gap, to the extent that it was even evaluating older Greek M2Ks last year.

Rafale is undoubtedly the more capable aircraft, but capability alone doesn't solve a numbers crisis. Air forces need both quality & quantity & the original purpose of the Tejas program was largely to address the latter.
I've heard it said that the Tejas has performance similar to a MiG-21 because it was supposed to replace it. The problem is that this idea doesn't make any sense. The MiG-21 might have been decent for the IAF back when it was first purchased, but that was in the 1960s. Even by the 1980s it should have been clear that India needed something that was larger and more capable.

tejas has no capability though. its a tiny dink of a plane. r-73s look massive on it. no matter what they say it's obvious the iaf doesnt actually like the type when the chips are on the table.

the whole indian obsession with squadron count is absurd. they're not under any real military threat and they're literally squandering(-ed, its honestly already too late) their golden hour to scrap and rebuild their forces anew.
The Tejas Mk1 is junk, and the Tejas Mk1A is junk. It doesn't get interesting until Mk2 but it's also going to as different from older Tejas models as the Super Hornet is to the legacy Hornet. And it's also going to take ages before India manages to develop it (and there's a good chance they're going to design it wrong).

On the flip side, I think that fighter squadron strength is a real problem. You know and I know that India is unlikely to fight a major war any time in the near future, and that it's most likely opponents, Pakistan and China, don't really want to fight it. The problem is that IAF cannot operate under that assumption. It exists to protect the country against threats, even relatively unlikely ones, and it simply doesn't have the strength to do that. To compound this problem, the IAF's old planes are very likely to have very low readiness, and even the Su-30MKIs aren't going to be in great shape. In comparison, the PAF's most dangerous aircraft; the J-10s, the F-16s and the JF-17 Blk 3s can be fielded in numbers.

Being tiny is a pure advantage for a plane, mainly intended to do cued intercept or light strike.
The only downside of it being small is Indian obsession to stuff Astra mk.1 into it. It's a bit big for the plane(meaning unnecessary coefficients), without corresponding performance; should've really just brought Derby-ER. What it needs though is either meteor or astra mk.3.
I'm not sure if the Tejas Mk1A is going to be good at any role outside of light strike. Being a very small plane is probably its biggest problem as it makes it very hard to add the new systems that might make it competitive. India would have been way better off trying to design something that's more like the Mk2 to begin with.
 

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
I'm not sure if the Tejas Mk1A is going to be good at any role outside of light strike. Being a very small plane is probably its biggest problem as it makes it very hard to add the new systems that might make it competitive. India would have been way better off trying to design something that's more like the Mk2 to begin with.
The main problem with Tejas is whether it'll ever actually work, indeed.

But this is India/execution/realistic risk management, it isn't "conceptual" problem to the LCA. Move Tejas development to a different country, and it probably just won't come up. But, at the same time, India also won't learn.

Tejas 2 is far, it hasn't even rolled out yet.
But they are meant to serve very different roles, despite both being related and Tejas. What going from LWF(LCA) to MWF(Tejas 2, Gripen E, Mirage 2000) does is it usually substantially increases range : payload metric, not so much pure range or pure payload.

I.e. tejas 2 doesn't really add much for short range, border guard roles, yet likely costs substantially more. Instead, it's a mini-Rafale, adding strike mass on the cheap (replacing Jaguar...ideally).
 
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4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
The main problem with Tejas is whether it'll ever actually work, indeed.

But this is India/execution/realistic risk management, it isn't "conceptual" problem to the LCA. Move Tejas development to a different country, and it probably just won't come up. But, at the same time, India also won't learn.
Theoretically, the one thing that India gained from Tejas is the institutional knowledge to build better fighter jets in the future. But then they decided to toss that away and give their future jet program to someone else! Sure, I get why that happened but what a fiasco!

Tejas 2 is far, it hasn't even rolled out yet.
But they are meant to serve very different roles, despite both being related and Tejas. What going from LWF(LCA) to MWF(Tejas 2, Gripen E, Mirage 2000) does is it usually substantially increases range : payload metric, not so much pure range or pure payload.

I.e. tejas 2 doesn't really add much for short range, border guard roles, yet likely costs substantially more. Instead, it's a mini-Rafale, adding strike mass on the cheap (replacing Jaguar...ideally).
The Mk2 offers a better radar, a bigger payload, and is a credible air superiority threat. The Mk1 has laughable anti-air capabilities and I don't think even the IAF has any faith in it. The Mk1A is unlikely to be much better. I'd also argue that the point defense role is obsolete and that having a bigger range is very necessary. Of course, this is all contingent on the plane actually existing, and there's no guarantee that it'll be any good when they get around to building it.
 

Gloire_bb

Colonel
Registered Member
The Mk2 offers a better radar, a bigger payload, and is a credible air superiority threat. The Mk1 has laughable anti-air capabilities and I don't think even the IAF has any faith in it. The Mk1A is unlikely to be much better.
Difference between mk.1a and mk.2 in direct combat is likely so minimal it isn't seriously worth looking into; both carry same radars/electronics/weapons/jammers, and overall should have similar performance...

PD role in Indian case is imposed by geography(major economic and population centers along eastern border and Himalayas)- it can't be outdated. You just have to keep fighter contingents along the borders, otherwise it's as good as if you don't have them at all...

As such, Indian fighter posture is broadly spread into 3 parts - forward deployed (Pakistani tea hunters; tea is nearby, no need to fly far), rear/backyard (here range indeed matters), navy.
Theoretically, the one thing that India gained from Tejas is the institutional knowledge to build better fighter jets in the future. But then they decided to toss that away and give their future jet program to someone else! Sure, I get why that happened but what a fiasco!
Yeah, that part was fascinating to watch.
As flawed as HAL is, it at least learned the hard way. Now, snowflakes without any experience would bring salvation. Sure Fam.
 

Lethe

Captain
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I don't get it. If Tejas is as good as we are being told, then why keep the Jaguars around?

Sustaining existing capability via low-cost acquisition of otherwise surplus materiel is a sensible investment. What it suggests about the IAF's near-term inventory prospects and the decisions that have contributed to that state of affairs is another matter.

That's precisely my point. Tejas was never intended to compete with Rafale-class aircraft. The whole concept behind the LCA program was to replace the large MiG-21 fleet & eventually help offset the retirement of other legacy platforms such as the MiG-23s, MiG-27s, & Jaguars, thereby maintaining squadron strength.

The requirement was fundamentally about numbers as much as capability. Unfortunately, decades later, the IAF is still grappling with a squadron shortfall while many of those legacy aircraft have already retired or are approaching retirement. That's why the discussion keeps returning to force levels.

One can debate whether Gripen would have been the ideal choice, but had India opted for a mature platform like the Gripen earlier, the squadron situation today might have been considerably better. The Gripen was already an operational 4.5-generation fighter with an established production line, potentially allowing faster induction & larger fleet numbers. Instead, the IAF has spent years trying to bridge the gap, to the extent that it was even evaluating older Greek M2Ks last year.

Rafale is undoubtedly the more capable aircraft, but capability alone doesn't solve a numbers crisis. Air forces need both quality & quantity & the original purpose of the Tejas program was largely to address the latter.

From a clean-sheet perspective, Gripen E/F would've been a compelling acquisition, however at the time it was considered it was still a developmental aircraft which did not enter squadron service until 2022. Plausibly that development schedule could've been compressed somewhat if India had in fact opted for it, but the point remains. Gripen C/D was the "mature" solution available and one major problem is that it clearly trod on the toes of LCA, which was not then expected to be decades away from delivering a useful capability.

In terms of acquiring a relatively modest and affordable western combat aircraft to sustain the inventory, the real missed opportunity in my view was in not doubling (tripling, quadrupling) down on Mirage 2000 in the late-90s to mid-2000s as Dassault was winding that program down in favour of Rafale. One can somewhat appreciate why it didn't happen, in that the timelines more-or-less overlap with those of Su-30MKI and state resources were limited, but in hindsight it was a mistake.

In an alternate reality where India did go down that path, IAF could today plausibly be operating hundreds of domestically manufactured M2Ks, with extensive ongoing domestic industry involvement in upgrade pathways executed at economic order quantities, with further production batches readily substituting for delays in LCA, declining availability of MiG-21, MiG-23/27, Jaguar, etc. And as an older program that was being superseded, Dassault may have been considerably more accommodating in relation to ToT and the like than they were and are for Rafale. Of course these are suppositions and one does not in fact know how the terms under which Dassault was willing to deal. It's possible that they may have been such that, on detailed examination, the prospect was unattractive. But given that Dassault was otherwise faced with the prospect of wrapping up the M2K production line without further returns, they surely would've been incentivised to negotiate in good faith. And on the Indian side of the equation, the evidence of recent decades provides little basis to think that the non-decision on M2K was the product of careful and thorough analysis and a robust decision-making process.
 
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_killuminati_

Major
Registered Member
I've heard it said that the Tejas has performance similar to a MiG-21 because it was supposed to replace it. The problem is that this idea doesn't make any sense. The MiG-21 might have been decent for the IAF back when it was first purchased, but that was in the 1960s.
Tejas was also envisaged in 2009 to replace the Mig-29 9.12B as the IAF estimated this replacement to be cheaper than upgrading all the existing stock to UPG (and later reupgrading the UPG in 2020's). The estimate was wrong on both accounts, hence IAF was forced to:
  1. Upgrade all Mig-29's to UPG with 3,500+ hours.
  2. Acquired additional Mig-29 9.12B from 1980's Soviet reserves, upgraded to UPG, in 2019, and life of all stock extended to 5,000+ hours.
IAF ACM stated, in 2023, that these Mig-29's will now serve well into the 2040's.
 
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