Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

A

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
mossen said:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



I wonder if this poison pill was intentional by the Indian govt to continue to starve their IAF intentionally to save funds or if they simply belabour under the delusion that Western govt will simply give away their crown jewels for pennies.
Click to expand...
I doubt it. The IAF takes up most of the Indian military budget and at some point it is cheaper to buy new, more reliable platforms than the flying coffins they are currently operating. Replacing dead pilots isn't cheap, even in India.

Maybe the Indian government is trying to cancel the Tejas programme, but it's more likely they are being delusional.

I doubt the Americans would give the Indians the same deal they gave Sweden on engines, let alone access to full designs. They know anything they give will immediately be handed over to Russia.

The Americans will treat the Indians the same as the French did with Rafale. Yes you have to pay full price, no we won't give you a discount, no we won't tell you how to make them. Oh look the price went up because you keep trying to bargain. You want us to sell them to you through your billionaire friend? okay but that'll cost more.

In the end it took the Pakistanis humiliating them in 2019 for them to finally pay up and buy Rafales at 2x the price everyone was.
 
A

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
mossen said:
Problem is that India has long underinvested in its armed forces. The Rafales they bought were already negotiated for in the early 2010s and back then, the Indians were supposed to buy 120+ planes. They ended up with 1/3rd that amount and a decade later.

Hence the MiGs being around for so long. There was simply no alternative due to lack of funds.

This is why India is so gung-ho about teaming up with America. They simply have no hope of success in any conflict with China.
Click to expand...
Tejas would fill mig-21 shoes... even if it's not marvelous, they could just pump them to fill the rank...
 
phrozenflame

phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
mossen said:
Problem is that India has long underinvested in its armed forces. The Rafales they bought were already negotiated for in the early 2010s and back then, the Indians were supposed to buy 120+ planes. They ended up with 1/3rd that amount and a decade later.

Hence the MiGs being around for so long. There was simply no alternative due to lack of funds.

This is why India is so gung-ho about teaming up with America. They simply have no hope of success in any conflict with China.
Click to expand...
I dont think the problem is money, its delusions of superiority. Today, Korea and Turkey have surpassed Indian MiC at least in aviation in past decade.
 
Lethe

Lethe

Captain
mossen said:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I wonder if this poison pill was intentional by the Indian govt to continue to starve their IAF intentionally to save funds or if they simply belabour under the delusion that Western govt will simply give away their crown jewels for pennies.
Click to expand...

If the Mk. 2 program was fully committed prior to engine production and ToT arrangements being finalized, Washington and GE would have no incentive to negotiate terms favourable to India. As it stands, if Washington does not offer reasonable terms then India can theoretically seek alternative powerplants, though GE/Washington are in a strong negotiating position owing to the advantages of incumbency and LCA's weight problem which makes a less powerful engine (as all of the alternatives are) rather problematic. US President Biden is visiting India in late June so that would be a good opportunity to finalise arrangements.

Professor Prodyut Das has long criticised the position of the canards in relation to the inlet on the Mk. 2, claiming that it will cause a variety of problems. His
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
post reiterates those concerns but with interesting news: there is apparently last-minute external consultancy with French aerospace research centre ONERA going on in relation to the inlet design:

It was here that things began to de- rail. It so happened that an aircraft enthusiast wrote in Vayu VI/2021 about a possibility of the Canards being in the wrong position vis a vis the intake. He used examples of the Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen to illustrate his point of view. The problems anticipated were:

1. 1.There would be intake buzz at certain Mach nos. Attached is a simple sketch of the problem and it shows that the shock wave off the L.E. canard would impinge on the inlet between 1.1 and 1.3 Mach starting a buzz. It would continue beyond M 1.6 .

2. 2.The use of the canards to control inflight variations would disturb the inlet flow and cause the engine to “hunt” unnecessarily. This could lead to reliability problems in the normally well- behaved F 414 engine.

3. 3.The use of the canards as an airbrake on landing could result in the engine occasionally flaming out.

This was in 2021 and the apprehension voiced was met with the usual ridicule and scurrilous insinuations. In a possible illustration that “The humble advice becomes palatable only when stale” the ADA announced in March 2023 that a Tejas team was in contact with the French ONERA and the Tejas Mk2 intakes would be studied there. The specific aspect of the intake for which the consultations is sought is not mentioned [....] So why the flurry at the eleventh hour? [....] Before I conjecture on that question let me fill in the history. For the record there have been misgivings reported about the Mk1 intakes amongst many many other things; I think the early prototypes did not even have blow in and dump doors. The Tejas Mk 1 does not achieve its design sea level speed (M 1.15) being capable of just about M 1.01 and one reason is that the F 404 does not develop its full thrust with the present intake system. It could be the intake but given that remarkable short 13.2 fuselage length it could also be the Co F or just poor build quality. If it is not any of those problem then it probably the inlet canard interference that is now worrying the ADA gentlemen and ADA is trying to see if some “fix” can be done by ONERA to make the canard inlet interference risk free without showing the up the goof.
Click to expand...

It seems the stage is set for public drama. Will the rock-throwing observer be discredited and fade away, or will he be vindicated (by visible design changes to the inlet and/or canard) and ascend to legendary status? Popcorn.
 
mossen

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
phrozenflame said:
Today, Korea and Turkey have surpassed Indian MiC at least in aviation in past decade.
Click to expand...
I suspect a major problem is that Indians were overly ambitious. Tejas was plagued by the IAF constantly changing and updating their requirements. The govt underfunded the programme and so it never really got off the ground (pardon the pun).

That said, India has reduced the share of foreign imports to their arms programmes. Last year's number was at around 35%. It touched nearly 50% in the early 2010s. They have their own domestic AESA radar under development among other examples.

Normally, I would have said that this was enough. But given the huge size of India, there is simply no way why they should not have their own domestic engine.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Lethe said:
If the Mk. 2 program was fully committed prior to engine production and ToT arrangements being finalized, Washington and GE would have no incentive to negotiate terms favourable to India. As it stands, if Washington does not offer reasonable terms then India can theoretically seek alternative powerplants, though GE/Washington are in a strong negotiating position owing to the advantages of incumbency and LCA's weight problem which makes a less powerful engine (as all of the alternatives are) rather problematic. US President Biden is visiting India in late June so that would be a good opportunity to finalise arrangements.

Professor Prodyut Das has long criticised the position of the canards in relation to the inlet on the Mk. 2, claiming that it will cause a variety of problems. His
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
post reiterates those concerns but with interesting news: there is apparently last-minute external consultancy with French aerospace research centre ONERA going on in relation to the inlet design:



It seems the stage is set for public drama. Will the rock-throwing observer be discredited and fade away, or will he be vindicated (by visible design changes to the inlet and/or canard) and ascend to legendary status? Popcorn.
Click to expand...
Yeah, my first impression of the canard's position of the mockup was that it is put there arbitrarily without wind tunnel test. Mk2 adopted close couped canard like Rafale and Gripen whose canards are all located at or behind the inlet precisely to get out of the way.
 
O

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
mossen said:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



I wonder if this poison pill was intentional by the Indian govt to continue to starve their IAF intentionally to save funds or if they simply belabour under the delusion that Western govt will simply give away their crown jewels for pennies.
Click to expand...
It kinda makes sense, why build an aircraft when you don't even know your engine would be available? On the other hand they could still proceed with the program and have their research and designer team gets valuable experience but then the Americans' negotiating position would be much stronger.

But overall, that they depend on an American engine for their airplane tells you all you need to know. Indian foreign policy at its best (worst)
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Probably issues with lack of maintenance. It cannot help that they have such a "diverse" fleet of aircraft.
Compare this with Russia where every helicopter can use derivatives of what is basically the same engine. Almost every combat aircraft is some Flanker derivative.

It is pretty striking they manage to have issues with the C-17 as well which is considered one of the most reliable aircraft in the USAF.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top