Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

supersnoop said:

Are you talking about MiG-21's Tumansky R-25 turbojet? You know MiG-21 is a single engine aircraft...

In any case, it is not really comparable to anything modern. Even China could build that level of engine for many years, but had difficulties with development and production of modern turbofans until recently.

It's actually more naive to suggest things can be "reverse engineered" so simply. You cannot just take something apart and copy it anymore. Off the top, you cannot copy material fabrication techniques for turbine blades and software engine controls.

That link is total nonsense. Safran is not a wizard. They cannot come in, take apart the engine and magically make it better.

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That article is talking Al-31FP engine of su30mki not the Mig21 bison engine and India has already developed a 73KN Thrust turbofan engine called Kaveri


It was meant to power LCA Tejas but the thrust requirement of Tejas has changed which it cannot meet so now India has decided to use it in combat drones like GHATAK UCAV

Project-75 refers to India's homegrown submarine effort, which is delayed. Kalvari is India's licensed production of the French Scorpene class of subs. So it looks like indigenisation could take a back seat for an updated version of the French Scorpene, which is what the Indians call "super Kalvari". Still under consideration, though. Bad optics if decision is taken given rhetoric of "Atmanirbhar Bharat".

mossen said:

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Project-75 refers to India's homegrown submarine effort, which is delayed. Kalvari is India's licensed production of the French Scorpene class of subs. So it looks like indigenisation could take a back seat for an updated version of the French Scorpene, which is what the Indians call "super Kalvari". Still under consideration, though. Bad optics if decision is taken given rhetoric of "Atmanirbhar Bharat".

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Additional Scorpenes are being floated as an alternative to proceeding with P-75I procurement which is intended to deliver six more foreign submarines and comprehensive ToT that would in turn allow India to build its own SSKs going forward. If ordered, additional Scorpenes would not be displacing indigenous submarines, but other foreign submarines. Ordering more Scorpenes as alternative to troubled P-75I procurement is a similar "pull rip cord in case of emergency" move as occurred when IAF ordered 36 Rafales after collapse of MMRCA.

Lethe said:

I am mostly going by Professor Prodyut Das' writings in Vayu and

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To be clear, what is being talked about here is an order of ~30 Rafales for IN (it will be either Rafale or Super Hornet) and perhaps a further ~30-50 for IAF (to put the endless MMRCA/MRFA saga to rest), added to the 36 Rafales that are now already in service with IAF. There is no prospect of turning Rafale into the new Su-30MKI. What alternative would you suggest? Su-57 is the only aircraft available that could be said to be superior to Rafale, but the design is immature. There is no carrier variant and even if there were it would not fit on the elevators. Also it is a heavy, Russian aircraft at a time when IAF is overburdened with heavy, Russian aircraft. I think a limited acquisition of mature Su-57 will eventually make sense for India but that time is not now.

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MMRCA 1.0 was meant to procure light category fighter jets to replace mig21 bison fleet but the delivery of LCA Tejas started in 2016 so there was no need of Light Fighters anymore hence IAF decided to procure medium category Fighter jets to replace Mig29 , Mirages and Jaguars
If the mass production of Tejas MK2 starts by 2027-28 then this MMRCA 2.0 is also very likely to get cancelled

Chandragupt said:

MMRCA 1.0 was meant to procure light category fighter jets to replace mig21 bison fleet but the delivery of LCA Tejas started in 2016 so there was no need of Light Fighters anymore hence IAF decided to procure medium category Fighter jets to replace Mig29 , Mirages and Jaguars
If the mass production of Tejas MK2 starts by 2027-28 then this MMRCA 2.0 is also very likely to get cancelled

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NO and NO

Have you ever wondered why the airforce keeps the designation of Tejas Mk-2 as "Light" Combat Aircraft Mk-2 despite it being more towards the medium category size? They don't want questions of viability on the MRFA tender (MMRCA is dead) and are maybe correct since India currently has an immediate requirement of tested designs to fullfill the squadron strength.

mossen said:

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Project-75 refers to India's homegrown submarine effort, which is delayed. Kalvari is India's licensed production of the French Scorpene class of subs. So it looks like indigenisation could take a back seat for an updated version of the French Scorpene, which is what the Indians call "super Kalvari". Still under consideration, though. Bad optics if decision is taken given rhetoric of "Atmanirbhar Bharat".

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The only logical move after the scrap of P-75I is the repeat order of additional Kalvaris with DRDO's AIP with a respectable order size so as to keep the scale of economics optimum and preserve the skill-pool.

'75-I fell through because the Navy wanted a "tested" AIP and more ToT than the vendors were comfortable with. The DRDO's AIP, although also "untested" and unproven in operational use, but has completed max endurance and max power performance trials in 2021 on a land based prototype as per the Navy's requirement so maybe that should cut through

Fulcrum007 said:

NO and NO

Have you ever wondered why the airforce keeps the designation of Tejas Mk-2 as "Light" Combat Aircraft Mk-2 despite it being more towards the medium category size? They don't want questions of viability on the MRFA tender (MMRCA is dead) and are maybe correct since India currently has an immediate requirement of tested designs to fullfill the squadron strength.

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Why IAF is not ordering more Tejas MK1A to increase squadron strength? Is it because Tejas uses American engines and in case of tension between India and US these engines may face maintenance issues?
But India is ordering 100 engines with spare parts so I don't think there is going to be maintenance issues for next 10 years atleast and after 10 years GTRE may come up with indigenous engine

Fulcrum007 said:

The only logical move after the scrap of P-75I is the repeat order of additional Kalvaris with DRDO's AIP with a respectable order size so as to keep the scale of economics optimum and preserve the skill-pool.

'75-I fell through because the Navy wanted a "tested" AIP and more ToT than the vendors were comfortable with. The DRDO's AIP, although also "untested" and unproven in operational use, but has completed max endurance and max power performance trials in 2021 on a land based prototype as per the Navy's requirement so maybe that should cut through

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That IN insisted on "proven", "operational" AIP for P-75I, despite DRDO ostensibly having its own AIP module, suggests that IN has no faith in DRDO's solution. It also suggests a failure of top-level politico-strategic guidance to negotiate and harmonise between DRDO and IN objectives. We have seen this story before. From the perspective of "reality 2023", more Scorpene/Kalvari but incorporating DRDO AIP would indeed seem to be the most sensible route forward. The devil, as always, is in the details.

Chandragupt said:

Why IAF is not ordering more Tejas MK1A to increase squadron strength? Is it because Tejas uses American engines and in case of tension between India and US these engines may face maintenance issues?

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Because IAF reasonably wants Mk. 1A to prove itself in production and service before more orders are entertained.

Chandragupt said:

MMRCA 1.0 was meant to procure light category fighter jets to replace mig21 bison fleet but the delivery of LCA Tejas started in 2016 so there was no need of Light Fighters anymore hence IAF decided to procure medium category Fighter jets to replace Mig29 , Mirages and Jaguars
If the mass production of Tejas MK2 starts by 2027-28 then this MMRCA 2.0 is also very likely to get cancelled

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This is wildly inaccurate. MMRCA was always intended to deliver a "medium" combat aircraft clearly distinguished from both the "light" LCA and the "heavy" Su-30MKI. Every MMRCA contender was larger and heavier than LCA, most significantly so (the heaviest contender, Super Hornet, is closer to Su-30MKI than to LCA). Even LCA Mk. II is only in the class of the lightest MMRCA contender, Gripen E. MMRCA failed because the demands of the contract (local production, expansive ToT) lead costs to escalate to intolerable levels, not because Tejas showed signs of progress. A government-to-government buy of 36 Rafales was rushed following the collapse of MMRCA. IAF has tried to reboot a similar acquisition under "MRFA" specifically because it does not have faith in DRDO/ADA/GTRE/HAL/etc. to deliver competitive indigenous solutions (Tejas Mk. 1A/Mk. II/AMCA) in relevant timeframes.

Chandragupt said:

Gripen has European radar and American engine , Tejas has indian UTTAM AESA radar and American engine and engine of tejas will get replaced by Indian engine in future but Gripen will continue to use American engine for it’s entire lifetime

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You need to be specific about what Gripen variant uses what radar. The Swedish Airforce JAS 39 Gripen E/F (NG) will use a Leonardo (Italian) AESA radar. This occurred as the SAAB AESA GaN Radar was not yet fully developed when the government placed the order for the original 60 NG aircraft. SAAB has since flight-tested the new AESA radar for Gripen C/D and is hoping that the government will buy them as an upgrade to the C/D Gripen.

And just so we're clear about one thing, the Gripen and Tejas are not comparable as you might suggest. Gripen E runs circles around Tejas Mk2 due to its state-of-the-art EW, better training, better weapons and better avionics. They are not even comparable in terms of combat capability.

Lethe said:

That IN insisted on "proven", "operational" AIP for P-75I, despite DRDO ostensibly having its own AIP module, suggests that IN has no faith in DRDO's solution. It also suggests a failure of top-level politico-strategic guidance to negotiate and harmonise between DRDO and IN objectives. We have seen this story before. From the perspective of "reality 2023", more Scorpene/Kalvari but incorporating DRDO AIP would indeed seem to be the most sensible route forward. The devil, as always, is in the details.



Because IAF reasonably wants Mk. 1A to prove itself in production and service before more orders are entertained.



This is wildly inaccurate. MMRCA was always intended to deliver a "medium" combat aircraft clearly distinguished from both the "light" LCA and the "heavy" Su-30MKI. Every MMRCA contender was larger and heavier than LCA, most significantly so (the heaviest contender, Super Hornet, is closer to Su-30MKI than to LCA). Even LCA Mk. II is only in the class of the lightest MMRCA contender, Gripen E. MMRCA failed because the demands of the contract (local production, expansive ToT) lead costs to escalate to intolerable levels, not because Tejas showed signs of progress. A government-to-government buy of 36 Rafales was rushed following the collapse of MMRCA. IAF has tried to reboot a similar acquisition under "MRFA" specifically because it does not have faith in DRDO/ADA/GTRE/HAL/etc. to deliver competitive indigenous solutions (Tejas Mk. 1A/Mk. II/AMCA) in relevant timeframes.

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MMRCA 2.0 is very likely to get cancelled

zavve said:

You need to be specific about what Gripen variant uses what radar. The Swedish Airforce JAS 39 Gripen E/F (NG) will use a Leonardo (Italian) AESA radar. This occurred as the SAAB AESA GaN Radar was not yet fully developed when the government placed the order for the original 60 NG aircraft. SAAB has since flight-tested the new AESA radar for Gripen C/D and is hoping that the government will buy them as an upgrade to the C/D Gripen.

And just so we're clear about one thing, the Gripen and Tejas are not comparable as you might suggest. Gripen E runs circles around Tejas Mk2 due to its state-of-the-art EW, better training, better weapons and better avionics. They are not even comparable in terms of combat capability.

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Yet Sweden has no engine program India on the other hand has already developed a 73KN (original target was 81KN) class Kaveri engine offcourse 73KN is not enough to power Tejas but what matters the most is the "know how"
now Indians are working on a 130KN engine for AMCA it may or may not be able to generate 130KN thrust but even if it generates 110KN of thrust it can power LCA Tejas
It's important to note that it took India 30 years to develop Kaveri engine but the next 130KN engine which they're making has to be completed in 8-10 years because they have already perfected 85% of the technology the only thing they need to perfect is the hot core section the metallurgy part in particular