Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
Indeed they do continue holding an aggressive posture here despite buffer zones being established and what seems like mutual desire to not escalate this conflict.

The main thing keeping the Indians at bay is the terrain. They simply cannot easily establish supply chains up 1000m+ of altitude from their core military positions. There is no way for Indians to easily mobilise AND perform a large scale invasion. The few camps and patrolling ground forces the Indians keep outnumber the PLA 10:1 if not more BEFORE this incident (aka India's attempt to take some no man's land while China appeared to be buckling with Covid in early 2020). Now it's a bit more even BUT the both sides keep some very token units around and certainly not enough to perform any serious invasion. India has supposedly reinforced the back end of this (before major climb in altitude) by hundreds of thousands of men, enough for serious invasion but India simply cannot maintain supply chains for such an invasion. Not the US nor China could realistically maintain such a demanding supply chain to go up thousands of metres. The energy cost is simply unrealistic.

Therefore I agree that defusing and not demarcating is still acceptable for China especially since it managed to establish (aka get India to agree to) buffer zones that are far more in favour of China's previous positions and current positions ie China took two steps forward and one step back while India took one step forward (initial incursion to take some parts of previous no man's land) and two steps back. However the solution is still demarcation. If India turns around in future, it's not even outrageous to simply give India no man's land stretch and demarcate along China's 1950s to 1990s offer. India would need to accept that they cannot get Aksai Chin though. That is a definitely line of no compromise, the rest, China always seemed to be happy to compromise since it OFFERED to many times in the past at the refusal of India.

Pivoting the conflict to Indian Ocean is a distraction of resources from a far superior and aggressive adversary - USA. The Indians talk lots, do little, the Americans talk little (on how awesome they are, how they should go to war and do this and that etc like Indians brag) and do more.

China has the world's greatest great wall separating itself from India, the Himalayan ranges around south western Tibet honestly make Indian ground force invasion a suicidal mission for India. Naturally the conflict is already in Indian Ocean. India in wartime would try to block Malacca Strait. PLAN probably wouldn't send surface fleets to untangle Indian navy but sink them from the mainland with DF-26, DF-100, and various long range HGV missile (cruise or gliding, China's got them all) to sink those capital ships. PLARF would only require to shoot off a few and sink a few capital ships of IN and the message is sent, unlock the strait and do not hassle Chinese ships. Gwadar port and pipelines earn China other routes towards energy exporters.

Indian naval AD is pathetically bad. Easily the worst. One AD system only with a relatively outdated and low power multifunction naval AESA - mfstar. It's roughly first generation Type 346 but with less than half the T/R and slightly less power. The AD missile is a medium range, low speed, low energy missile. Intercepting conventional anti ship missiles is indeed it's main purpose and where it is strongest due to having relatively low energy and speed. Not great against high energy aircraft like fighters and absolutely useless against hypersonic glide and MaRV type weapons... basically anything that moves around even a bit and requires the interceptor to move towards an updated interception point hence draining its already 30% lower energy compared to missiles like HQ-9 (much less energy than this) or HQ-16 or 5-5-5 (much less energy than this one).
The current buffer zones are an equivalent distance on both sides of the Colombo line(1962 lac) and were formed by the removal of temporary posts of both armies. The exception was in hot springs, where both sides agrees to move back several km from their previous permanent posts(china's Jianan post and India's Alfa 3 post at pp16.

there are a few more exceptions. No agreements have been reached in depsang and demchok, which have the biggest differences in perception and where both sides are occupying territory within the other side's lac claim. Of course these are legacy disputes from before 2020.

in addition India does have a bunch of new permanent posts in galwan between the Shyok confluence(china's perception of lac) and pp14.

So overall, in most areas with some exceptions the status quo as of 2019 has been restored with buffer zones in place until demarcation
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Indian Air Force retired Air Vice-Marshal not going along with the Indian media narrative that Tejas as a platform is ready for service let alone the much touted and yet again hyped Tejas Mk II when according to the Vice-Marshal Tejas MK I isn't even ready or full in service. The officers went on to emphasize the reality to his fellow Indians that no countries that has the fighter engine proprietary technology WILL HAND IT TO THE INDIANS BLINDLY.


Interesting. I assumed they have put dozens (at least) of Tejas Mk.1A into service already. Tejas program is ridiculous. They ought to be on Mk.2 by now and not just flying it around but putting first batches into service. Mk.1A isn't even an existing plane yet according to that retired IAF guy. Is Uttam radar finally in operational service?

How is the IAF only now still on receiving initial orders of Mk.1 which is essentially the first aircraft the LCA project was supposed to deliver. It's not all an engine issue because they've been able to buy and use the F404 and then the F414 engines. This would be like if Pakistan is only now receiving first few dozen of JF-17 block 1 with block 2 mostly still on paper and block 3 in powerpoint and CGI only.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Interesting. I assumed they have put dozens (at least) of Tejas Mk.1A into service already. Tejas program is ridiculous. They ought to be on Mk.2 by now and not just flying it around but putting first batches into service. Mk.1A isn't even an existing plane yet according to that retired IAF guy. Is Uttam radar finally in operational service?

How is the IAF only now still on receiving initial orders of Mk.1 which is essentially the first aircraft the LCA project was supposed to deliver. It's not all an engine issue because they've been able to buy and use the F404 and then the F414 engines. This would be like if Pakistan is only now receiving first few dozen of JF-17 block 1 with block 2 mostly still on paper and block 3 in powerpoint and CGI only.
And yet what's funny is that these shameless folks keep selling these Tejas for export to countries left right and centre. How in the world is other countries would go for this product if the IAF doesn't even operate a fully operational squadron, let alone a fully operational plane in their service? What's up with that?
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
And yet what's funny is that these shameless folks keep selling these Tejas for export to countries left right and centre. How in the world is other countries would go for this product if the IAF doesn't even operate a fully operational squadron, let alone a fully operational plane in their service? What's up with that?
From the comments section:

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beijing_bandar

New Member
Registered Member
Pivoting the conflict to Indian Ocean is a distraction of resources from a far superior and aggressive adversary - USA. The Indians talk lots, do little, the Americans talk little (on how awesome they are, how they should go to war and do this and that etc like Indians brag) and do more.
I would propose spending minimal resources on confronting the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean. However, the actions taken in the Indian Ocean should be highly visible, provocative, and induce India to spend like crazy on building up the Indian Navy to the detriment of the Indian Army's budget.

India is debating whether to build a third aircraft carrier. The cost of a third aircraft carrier along with the aircraft could be anywhere between $10 to $20 billion. This is what I mean by spend like crazy. The entire Indian military capital expenditure budget in one year is a bit over $20 billion. I do not see the Indian economy growing rapidly over the long term so the capital expenditure budget would not grow by much either. I predict building the third aircraft carrier would cripple the budget of the Indian Army and Indian Air Force for years to come.

A visit by a PLAN aircraft carrier to Pakistan would itself alarm Indian strategic thinkers enough to bolster the case for the third aircraft carrier. Indian strategic thinkers are deluded about the prospects for Indian economic growth (predictions abound in Indian strategic circles of a $10 trillion, $20 trillion, $30 trillion economy right around the corner). False economic optimism combined with the provocation of a PLAN aircraft carrier in their face makes it feasible to manipulate the Indian strategic community into supporting the third Indian Navy aircraft carrier.

I don't see a third Indian Navy aircraft carrier as being much of a threat. It will however have the effect of draining the budget of the Indian military where it needs to more urgently go. I see this idea as a low cost way to deal with the nuisance of the Indian Army, allowing for one less distraction in contending with the US.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm surprised there's been more talk about the Galwan withdrawal agreement. India agrees to vacate PP15, PP16

It looks like Modi has agreed to all Chinese points.

I'm even more surprised that Indian media seem to be generally reporting it as an Indian loss of territory. What happened to the Indian position things were fine because their perception of the LAC hadn't changed....

India has a new camp just 2 km from pp16.


China also agreed to move back several km from it's Jianan post which it had built before the standoff even started.

 

beijing_bandar

New Member
Registered Member
Some figures to put the cost of a third Indian Navy aircraft carrier into context.

Military budget and capital expenditure portion:

Capital expenditure (segment of budget for new equipment) in the Indian military budget for (FY2022-23) is 31% of the total Ministry of Defense budget or $1.6 trillion rupees (US$20 billion). For the Indian Navy specifically, the capital expenditure budget is US$6 billion.
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Costs of aircraft carriers and the aircraft:

Matheswaran conceded the high cost of aircraft carriers was a major factor in lack of enthusiasm for such ships as other defence projects were also in need of funds. Matheswaran referred to the massive spike in cost of modernising the Vikramaditya, which saw its original price rise from $974 million to $2.35 billion. "Together with 45 MiG-29K aircraft and additional modifications, the overall price now sits somewhere between $6 billion and $7 billion," Matheswaran wrote in The Interpreter.

Matheswaran noted the cost of the Vikrant, once fully equipped with aircraft, would likely be "$10–11 billion". "The third proposed carrier, Vishal, still in conceptual stages, is expected to cost $6–8 billion and take 10–14 years to build. Including an aerial component of F-18E or Rafale aircraft at current prices, the total cost is likely to be in the order of $16–17 billion," Matheswaran wrote in The Interpreter.
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Some figures to put the cost of a third Indian Navy aircraft carrier into context.

Military budget and capital expenditure portion:

Capital expenditure (segment of budget for new equipment) in the Indian military budget for (FY2022-23) is 31% of the total Ministry of Defense budget or $1.6 trillion rupees (US$20 billion). For the Indian Navy specifically, the capital expenditure budget is US$6 billion.
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Costs of aircraft carriers and the aircraft:


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Which is what I don't understand and can never get from these Indian folks whether civilian or military people because almost all of them are synonymous with their seemingly unending contempt, envy of China’s capabilities militarily and elsewhere.

I have been watching defense shows that purported to discuss Indian defense and related issues on Sansad TV on YouTube and my goodness, there's not a single episode where China hasn't been on their consciousness; viewing that country as the "THREAT" to the Indians. A border issue is being hyped up relentlessly as China's aggressive takeover of their country. Any Chinese advances, procuring of weapons for it's armed forces are viewed fanatically as a threat to India. Taiwan, South China Sea somehow are included into their defense discussions while complaining incessantly about China's supposed "maligned intentions" in the Indian Ocean (that India thinks it belongs to them in it's entirety).

It's unfortunate that Indian mainstream thinking view China in this regard since it forces the Indians to really spend on their defense haphazardly where the much needed money should be focused on building up on their economy and finding some kind of modus vivendi with China as well as Pakistan to bide their time time while they (India) build up their strength. But such a strategy is anathema to these arrogant folks who both fear and underestimate China while patting themselves at the back with a false sense of non-existing superiority.
 
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