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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
To be fair, this is a Pondicherry-class minesweeper only 60m long and less than 900 tons full load.

One suspects that the reason behind the additional reflectors is that they aren't looking to evaluate the performance of the seeker, but rather to evaluate impact/damage characteristics. A "miss" would fail to achieve test objectives and require another missile to be used, in turn requiring reallocation from inventory and ultimately drawing from expense accounts, which could have career implications. From a broader perspective, this is obviously silly: if BrahMos' seeker has trouble with smaller warships, that absolutely needs to be identified and addressed. But from the perspective of mid-level bureaucracy, I can see the motivation to control extraneous factors.

I think you will find that such tight control of supposed "real world" tests is quite common in military services worldwide, and fear of failure and important people looking silly or incompetent is the biggest reason why. Most tests and exercises are designed to "prove" or "demonstrate" something that has already decided upon, and nobody involved wants to learn that e.g. the adversary force has its own ideas about how it is going to operate. This is why officers at all levels need to be empowered to take initiative and make mistakes without fear for their career prospects.

See: USMC General Paul van Riper and the exercise
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. Playing a "Red Team" (basically a thinly veiled Iran), he used small missile craft to sink most of a USN carrier battle group only to have the exercise paused and USN's ships "refloated" because that wasn't the way the exercise was meant to be going.
Why would they want to test impact characteristics on a tiny minesweeper ship? A supersonic missile with a 300kg is going to absolutely destroy a ship that size.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
Why would they want to test impact characteristics on a tiny minesweeper ship? A supersonic missile with a 300kg is going to absolutely destroy a ship that size.
Not according to that photo. That ship can probably be dragged back to dock. Even the moskova suffered more damage. Looks like too much bragging from the Indians again.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
How do you know that? Any sources or the likes.

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The visiting forces were under simulated attacks from the moment they arrived at their marshalling areas, and then placed under continued nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) as well as air attack throughout the exercises (
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, June 24, 2014). The OPFOR possessed total dominance in the air and artillery arenas as well as tactical advantage due to advanced reconnaissance being denied to the visiting units. Most of the units lost 30–50 percent of their forces by the time they came into contact with the OPFOR, and some lost up to 70 percent by the time their exercise segment ended. Never before has the PLA been given such a test by such an opponent, and the Zhurihe experiment sent shockwaves throughout the officer corps.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
The missile did not have a live warhead.
His point (and mine) was that the test obivously wasn't to test penetration capability as you claimed. You wouldn't use an empty missile against a fishing ship in that situation.

Either this is a test of launch/readiness systems or just a test for geopolitical reasons.
 

Lethe

Captain
His point (and mine) was that the test obivously wasn't to test penetration capability as you claimed. You wouldn't use an empty missile against a fishing ship in that situation.

Either this is a test of launch/readiness systems or just a test for geopolitical reasons.

PiSigma's point was clear enough, not sure why you are eager to associate with it.

In any case the test seems to have been intended to validate the new installation aboard INS Delhi. Makes no difference to the bulk of my post i.e. purpose of reflectors is to control for extraneous variables so as to minimise the chance of someone important looking silly. The extensive media coverage goes to reinforce this, though I suspect it would've been easy enough to bury the test if it had missed. You can view it as a lack of confidence in BrahMos if you like, I see it as more of an issue of institutional culture.
 

PiSigma

"the engineer"
PiSigma's point was clear enough, not sure why you are eager to associate with it.

In any case the test seems to have been intended to validate the new installation aboard INS Delhi. Makes no difference to the bulk of my post i.e. purpose of reflectors is to control for extraneous variables so as to minimise the chance of someone important looking silly. The extensive media coverage goes to reinforce this, though I suspect it would've been easy enough to bury the test if it had missed. You can view it as a lack of confidence in BrahMos if you like, I see it as more of an issue of institutional culture.
What I'm questioning is the purpose of this test. What is the objective?

If you are testing the destructive power of the missile, you would not have a dud, but use a live missile.

For penetration test, you won't use a tiny boat, because the building technique, structure and armor on a destroyer would be very different. So the data collected is basically useless. That's why you see the Americans bombing the crap out of old destroyers to see damage assessment and not mine sweepers.

If you want to test the missile seeker on target finding, then why put on the reflectors? It just make it too easy. Sure its suppose to simulate a much larger ship, but if a missile can find a mine sweeper it can find a destroyer. If u can dodge a wrench, u can dodge a ball
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
Ideally, tests should aim for realism, and in real life warships do not equip itself with corner reflectors to help anti-ship missiles. Deliberately equipping your target ship with corner reflectors mean you are not certain your test will succeed without them, which is a red flag.
A systematic approach to testing involves a series of unit tests with very specific defined objectives before any integrated tests.

Also, whether or not corner reflectors help or hinder assessment of the weapon’s homing performance depends on whether the radar profile of the trail target would otherwise sufficiently resemble the profile of the weapons’ s likely wartime target. This would be all the more true if the missile’s radar and processing software is sophisticated enough to identify the target by its radar profile and aim for a point other than centroid of the reflections. In this case testing the homing performance of the weapon depends on giving the target a specific radar profile, rather than just any radar profile the target by chance happen to have.

If there are two possible interpretations for the choices and behavior of a despised enemy, one gives the enemy capabilities the benefit of the doubt, the other belittles the capabilities of the enemy, always selecting the interpretation that belittles the capabilities of that despised enemy is probably something the Russians did before the Ukrainian invasion.

As you can see, the Russians probably currently see cause to regret their choices.
 
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