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weig2000

Captain
Admiral (ret.) Arun Prakash, former Chief of Naval Staff for the Indian Navy, puts his finger on the issue here: India's reluctance to do the long, hard work over years and decades of persisting with and incrementally improving upon an inferior indigenous product:


Note that this is from 2014. And I'm pretty sure he meant F-35, not J-35. ;)

He said J-20 first. A Freudian slip?
 

by78

General
India's aftermarket and very
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aerial refueling solution for the SEPECAT Jaguar. Forward visibility? What's that?

52014233438_a233ff6879_k.jpg

52014184766_818864940a_k.jpg
52014699275_5038f0057b_k.jpg


For comparison, here's the manufacturer's original solution to inflight refueling:
Jaguar_Refueling.JPEG
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Admiral (ret.) Arun Prakash, former Chief of Naval Staff for the Indian Navy, puts his finger on the issue here: India's reluctance to do the long, hard work over years and decades of persisting with and incrementally improving upon an inferior indigenous product:


Note that this is from 2014. And I'm pretty sure he meant F-35, not J-35. ;)

And they'll remain reluctant as long as they have access to top of the line weapons from established arms makers.
 

Lethe

Captain
And they'll remain reluctant as long as they have access to top of the line weapons from established arms makers.

The lure of shiny and expensive foreign products is undeniable, but I think it is a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself. It should be possible and even desirable to leverage the products, technologies and expertise in Europe, USA, Russia and Israel to accelerate the development of India's own MIC. Yet this does not seem to be happening, at least not in any generalisable or systemic fashion or over reasonable timeframes (witness the various rounds of "foreign consultation" in the LCA program since the 1980s!).

What I appreciated about Admiral Prakash's comments here was that he was willing to suggest that the expectations of the services are part of the problem, and he was realistic about the timeframes required for improvement: 20 or 30 years. In relation to the first point, the services need to accept what the Indian MIC can actually deliver, which will not necessarily align with what the services want or be remotely competitive with foreign products available on the world market. India needs to create a "virtuous cycle" of orders (and revenue!), production, feedback, and refinement (using said revenue!). Without this cycle, a malnourished Indian MIC is forever being asked to deliver products that "run" when in fact it is struggling to deliver products that can "stand", let alone "walk". The second point, timelines, is related to the first and is mostly institutional in nature. There needs to be clear, long-term strategic-industrial direction emanating from the top, coupled with institutional reforms that allow for engineering best practices to flourish. I think
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may be the article that Admiral Prakash was referring to (originally published elsewhere). One thing that emerges from this article is a lack of test facilities and low testbed hours. This is the kind of boring, unsexy work that must be attended do rather than dreaming up PowerPoints for 5.5G VLO composite aircraft.

We also need to acknowledge the limits of this approach. India's armed services will, quite reasonably, not tolerate a situation whereby Indian equipment is grossly inferior to that of threat actors (we all know who they are). Imports (and limited "Made in India" joint ventures) will be part of the equation for the foreseeable future. The challenge is to make use of the world market without becoming beholden to it. It would probably be too inflexible to specify minimum/maximum proportions of procurement budget to be spent domestically or abroad, but nonetheless there should be an overriding principle that foreign procurement should not come at the expense of investment in domestic R&D or domestic production.

India's aftermarket and very
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aerial refueling solution for the SEPECAT Jaguar. Forward visibility? What's that?

If it works and is indigenous and affordable, then this is probably a good development. There are major challenges with stuffing a major assembly like a refueling probe into a nose section that was not originally designed to accommodate one, and Jaguar is not a large aircraft with a large nose to begin with. The Americans have even gone with a podded IRST for Super Hornet rather than take the more expensive and elegant route of an integrated solution.

India needs more of this kind of thinking, not less.
 
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Lethe

Captain
Ok, I can see now that IFR as depicted above was part of the equipment fit for British and French Jaguars.

We know that India has invested heavily in upgrading its Jaguar fleet with mostly domestic systems. It is very likely that the original spaces allocated to the OEM refuelling system are now occupied by other systems.

As such my point stands: this kind of makeshift solution is something we want to see more of: stuff that is designed and manufactured domestically, stuff that works and is affordable, stuff that actually exists.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
India's aftermarket and very
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aerial refueling solution for the SEPECAT Jaguar. Forward visibility? What's that?

52014184766_818864940a_k.jpg


For comparison, here's the manufacturer's original solution to inflight refueling:
That's hilarious.

Look at the hex bolts they used instead of the flush ones everywhere else, and look at the panel overhang. Don't they have CNC plasma cutters in the whole of India?

What's the likelihood of that panel even being alloy? I bet they just took a steel panel from a scrapyard, cut out the shape with an angle grinder, welded on pipes and that connector and then bolted it onto the plane with some regular steel bolts. Jugaad indeed.
 

by78

General
That's hilarious.

Look at the hex bolts they used instead of the flush ones everywhere else, and look at the panel overhang. Don't they have CNC plasma cutters in the whole of India?

What's the likelihood of that panel even being alloy? I bet they just took a steel panel from a scrapyard, cut out the shape with an angle grinder, welded on pipes and that connector and then bolted it onto the plane with some regular steel bolts. Jugaad indeed.

It'd be great if they could add a periscope for the pilot because I doubt he can see much with that jugaad refueling probe in the way.
 
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