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Brumby

Brumby

Major
chain smoker said:
only initial batches of mk1a will be fitted with Israeli radar.
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The earliest batch is sometime in 2024. The fact that the initial batch will not be Uttam signals that there is no confidence that the indigenous product is any where near final form even though 2024 is 4 years away. That is my initial point. Basically watch what they do rather than what they say. India's performance in delivering on time is not sterling. An indigenous AESA radar will likely not be the exception to its track record.

chain smoker said:
super sukhoi will have our own weapons computer in fact Brahmos integrated sukhoi are already fitted after Russians refused to share source code. This is the proposed local content in upgrade if Russians don't object.
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The conversation is about AESA radar and not Brahmos. In any case, Brahmos is a joint Russian project and so integration undoubtedly comes with Russian cooperation. The technical path for a non Russian AESA product will be far more challenging as Russia has already expressed that it will not cooperate and why India is now stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I have not seen any serious proposal on how to get out of this mess. A marketing brochure does not get you to a final product. You actually need a plan.
I actually don't understand why Russia cannot deliver on an AESA product for the SU-30MKI. If it needs technical assistance, India can get the Israeli to advise from the side. At least that is a plan. Attempting to fit a non Russian AESA radar onto the SU-30MKI in my view is a suicidal mission.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Dropping the whole super Sukhoi plan and "threatening" to go with frontline backbone numbers of Rafales has been the negotiation tactic. Pretty much a repeating pattern when it comes to Indian defence acquisitions for a long time. Russia seems to want more out of any deal. Dropping out of FGFA program for IAF hurt Sukhoi's export prospects at least a little and it won't be forgiven lightly by the Russians so giving airborne AESA tech no strings attached isn't going to happen. Russia has airborne AESA in the Su-57 so coming out with something that can work for Su-30s isn't impossible. Russia's counting on India one day realising an entire backbone fleet of Meteor and NATO spec armed Rafales are not going to come cheap. Some politically savvy moves are necessary to avoid an arms race India is far behind on and does not seem to be able to afford when it comes to China. On the Pakistan front, they already enjoy a military edge but the whole conflict is rather unconventional and cannot really be defused or resolved with conventional military superiority, to totally ignore the nuclear stalemate.

But then again another puzzling FACT is that Uttam will grant IAF pilots Godlike eyes in the skies and will be able to detect with unlimited range into the 12th dimension. Even the current Bars radars of MKIs can detect and track J-20s in full "stealth" mode from 200km away... at least. That's right. There's hardly any real need for any of these upgrades and new toys.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
ougoah said:
;):p:p:p I know right... anyway it's self apparent the Indians are superior in every way. Right down to the planning for AMCA and execution. We'll see it papadum-inate all da skies when it comes out!

In IAF Mig-21 > J-10, Su-30 > J-11, Su-30MKI > J-16, Tejas > J-20, and AMCA >> F-22. Rafale is almost unnecessary but just to bolster the overwhelming superior firepower and tekmology. Man I'm so glad Indians are so peace loving and brilliant human beings you guys show so much mercy to those Pakistanis and Chinis.

Oh I forgot the 300km+ range of the new IAF air to air missiles and hypersonic space bombs in development and ready to strike China and Pakistan. The best in the world LRSAM and MRSAM will also defend Indian skies from everything from Chinese rockets to God's lightning bolts.
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Ougoah and Chain, you gents need to kool it, or you will be joining your two friends on vacation:

I'm going to give ONE more warning about posting here on the Indian Military thread, any more provocative, insulting flame bait will earn you a weeks vacation!, if you are a habitual offender here, longer vacations and permanent bans will ensue!

The Mod's are on this stuff, report it and let us handle it! back and forth and two year old krap will no longer be tolerated!
 
C

chain smoker

New Member
Registered Member
Air Force Brat said:
Ougoah and Chain, you gents need to kool it, or you will be joining your two friends on vacation:

I'm going to give ONE more warning about posting here on the Indian Military thread, any more provocative, insulting flame bait will earn you a weeks vacation!, if you are a habitual offender here, longer vacations and permanent bans will ensue!

The Mod's are on this stuff, report it and let us handle it! back and forth and two year old krap will no longer be tolerated!
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I am not interested in silly arguments but the member @ougoah is having long record of derailing this thread multiple times.
 
C

chain smoker

New Member
Registered Member
Brumby said:
The earliest batch is sometime in 2024. The fact that the initial batch will not be Uttam signals that there is no confidence that the indigenous product is any where near final form even though 2024 is 4 years away. That is my initial point. Basically watch what they do rather than what they say. India's performance in delivering on time is not sterling. An indigenous AESA radar will likely not be the exception to its track record.


The conversation is about AESA radar and not Brahmos. In any case, Brahmos is a joint Russian project and so integration undoubtedly comes with Russian cooperation. The technical path for a non Russian AESA product will be far more challenging as Russia has already expressed that it will not cooperate and why India is now stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I have not seen any serious proposal on how to get out of this mess. A marketing brochure does not get you to a final product. You actually need a plan.
I actually don't understand why Russia cannot deliver on an AESA product for the SU-30MKI. If it needs technical assistance, India can get the Israeli to advise from the side. At least that is a plan. Attempting to fit a non Russian AESA radar onto the SU-30MKI in my view is a suicidal mission.
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Russia asked high cost for integrating Brahmos on mki so we did it on our own by doing some structural modifications and changing mission computer.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
chain smoker said:
Russia asked high cost for integrating Brahmos on mki so we did it on our own by doing some structural modifications and changing mission computer.
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how come?, Russia control the software, you would need Russian approval for any modification of MKI! That the reality of importing the whole system.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Did someone screw up the scale model, or are they actually retaining the booster rocket for the air launched version of the Brahmos? Most air launched AShM and cruise missiles dispense with the land based version’s booster.

With the booster, the missile is far too long for anything other than centreline carriage, but without that, it might just be short enough to carry under the wing without interfering with the tail movement, provided the MKI has the structural strength and lifting power to take off with 3 Brahmos.

Would seem like a good trade-off to triple your missile load per plane for some sacrifices in range, especially when you consider the range of the missile even without booster.
 
A

antiterror13

Brigadier
plawolf said:
Did someone screw up the scale model, or are they actually retaining the booster rocket for the air launched version of the Brahmos? Most air launched AShM and cruise missiles dispense with the land based version’s booster.

With the booster, the missile is far too long for anything other than centreline carriage, but without that, it might just be short enough to carry under the wing without interfering with the tail movement, provided the MKI has the structural strength and lifting power to take off with 3 Brahmos.

Would seem like a good trade-off to triple your missile load per plane for some sacrifices in range, especially when you consider the range of the missile even without booster.
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Perhaps software issues
 
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