Sorry too difficult because I'm rushing most of the messages. But just type whatever in a chunk and I can still read it and understand. If you want to break down my points, you can do that in one large chunk.
Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
- Start date
Sorry too difficult because I'm rushing most of the messages. But just type whatever in a chunk and I can still read it and understand. If you want to break down my points, you can do that in one large chunk.
Dizasta1
Senior Member
Bhoka Bhediya, please refrain from using the term "Pakis" when referring to the People of Pakistan, as it considered a racist slur. The correct term in reference to People of Pakistan is "Pakistanis." Your cooperation and understanding is due forthwith.
Also, kindly read through the forum rules.
Also, kindly read through the forum rules.
Ultra
Junior Member
OMG......
To avoid Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on complete-tech transfer pact
NEW DELHI: India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.
Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.
"Though bulk of the 272 Sukhois (240 inducted till now) contracted from Russia have been made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), they have been basically assembled here with imported knocked-down kits. HAL still cannot manufacture the Sukhois on its own," said a source. A HAL-made Sukhoi (around Rs 450 crore) also costs Rs 100 crore more than the price of the same jet imported from Russ ..
Read more at:
India has acquired Su-27/Su-30 since mid-90s, even been given all the tooling and access to manuals and know-how they still can't figure out how to make the plane themselves, let alone to reverse engineer it. What is the problem? China has reverse engineered the plane and flying the J-11 since 1998 and produced over 250+ improved version of it.
And now it looks like FGFA is in doubt or could already be cancelled. And they now have the bright idea to "go alone" to produce their own 5th generation fighter (AMCA) even when the Tejas is still having problem and in very limited low rate production (since 2015 the year of supposed introduction they have so far produced 26).
To avoid Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on complete-tech transfer pact
NEW DELHI: India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.
Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.
"Though bulk of the 272 Sukhois (240 inducted till now) contracted from Russia have been made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), they have been basically assembled here with imported knocked-down kits. HAL still cannot manufacture the Sukhois on its own," said a source. A HAL-made Sukhoi (around Rs 450 crore) also costs Rs 100 crore more than the price of the same jet imported from Russ ..
Read more at:
India has acquired Su-27/Su-30 since mid-90s, even been given all the tooling and access to manuals and know-how they still can't figure out how to make the plane themselves, let alone to reverse engineer it. What is the problem? China has reverse engineered the plane and flying the J-11 since 1998 and produced over 250+ improved version of it.
And now it looks like FGFA is in doubt or could already be cancelled. And they now have the bright idea to "go alone" to produce their own 5th generation fighter (AMCA) even when the Tejas is still having problem and in very limited low rate production (since 2015 the year of supposed introduction they have so far produced 26).
Dizasta1
Senior Member
The indians are living in fantasy land if they think that Russia would be selling ToT of its frontline fifth generation stealth fighter to india. No country is that stupid, America never sold its F-22s to its darling israel. Nor is China selling its J-20s to Pakistan. Then what makes anyone think that Russia would be so stupid to sell Su-57s with ToT to india? Are the last of the Romanovs living in india? Word of advice to indians, you aren't an exception to the rule so get over yourselves and focus on real world things.
AFAIK the Indians never got a license to manufacture Sukhoi airplane parts. They had a deal similar to the Chinese deal. Assembly from parts kits and aircraft maintenance. The thing is they did not infringe on the deal's terms. Unlike the Chinese who reverse engineered the aircraft and started their own manufacture without a license.
I think the Russians would be willing to make the Indians able to manufacture some Su-57 parts. But 100% transfer? Keep dreaming. The Russian industry and their defense complex needs to have some sort of edge or they will lose their export market in the long term. I do think Russia needs to make their software easier to extend to add support for new weapons systems and the like however. Countries like China and India have such requirements and the Russians have not been that receptive to their needs. This leaves the market wide open to third parties and makes their clients more eager to reverse engineer their avionics.
The Russians might be willing to do 100% tech transfer on an older aircraft or provide them with assistance to develop some components for a new airplane. But not the Su-57.
I think the Russians would be willing to make the Indians able to manufacture some Su-57 parts. But 100% transfer? Keep dreaming. The Russian industry and their defense complex needs to have some sort of edge or they will lose their export market in the long term. I do think Russia needs to make their software easier to extend to add support for new weapons systems and the like however. Countries like China and India have such requirements and the Russians have not been that receptive to their needs. This leaves the market wide open to third parties and makes their clients more eager to reverse engineer their avionics.
The Russians might be willing to do 100% tech transfer on an older aircraft or provide them with assistance to develop some components for a new airplane. But not the Su-57.
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IMO the Russians can and will be able to at least strike a compromise deal just like they did with China - in which Chinese Su-27 series jets cannot be exported and the Chinese have since complied. This is because the Russians still had/has what the Chinese needed/need from the most brutally realistic point of view (alternatively they are pretty friendly with each other anyways). I would say that kind of deal can be done with India and will be maintained in the long term.
But really, really, long, long term? Not going to happen if India manages to climb up the value chain like China did. So it's best for Russian interests to keep the Su-57 tech to themselves for now.
MwRYum
Major
Yeah, yet more "Chinese steal this" "Chinese steal that"...it's the same whether on fb, Twitter or Quora, and here's no exception.
Look, even Indians themselves set the goal of buffing up their own production base through every FMS deals, that said the goal never stop at just acquire the jet but also the knowhow in fabrications.So why when China is finally making headway, but not India?
Look, India enjoy far more favourable terms in acquiring advance tech from Western Bloc, shouldn't that supposed to mean something?
It is not like the Russians have not designed weapons specifically for India in the past and progressively given them all the relevant details of the technology.
One example would be the BrahMos missile. The Russians also did joint research with South Korea on the S-350 missile defense system.
I would not be surprised if the Russians also allowed India to manufacture Flanker components with an appropriate license deal. However AFAIK India is not interested in more Flanker derivatives. It is one thing to allow someone to manufacture an older generation aircraft, like the USA tried to do with the F-16 sales to India, quite another to give 100% access to the latest technology. Take the F-35 program as an example. A lot of the foreign partners in the project manufacture parts for the F-35. But the most sensitive technologies are not shared at all. Just see what happened to Turkey. The Turks are quite insistent on technology transfers on all their acquisitions yet they still did not get full access to the entire technology base.
AFAIK India already has the technology base to do a 4 gen or 4.5 gen aircraft. Their problem is they have proven unable to manage a project like that. They have poor experience with integrating all the technology and getting it to work. In that case you either import tech advisors from abroad to help or you keep doing mistakes until you learn. The Chinese were willing to do that. One can argue all one wants about the Flanker clones. But China also has done the J-10 and the FC-1 where they basically developed the whole technology base with the exception of the engines. Well that was not trivial but they did it. But it is not like they had zero experience. I mean they had cloned the MiG-21 and also designed the J-8II which is a non-trivial modification of the MiG-21 technology. It took them decades to do it. But they did not pull the plug on it.
I think most of the issues India has had so far with their weapons technology programs are internal. It is pretty hard to find an indigenous Indian weapons program that has been successful. This is IMHO because of their persistent insistence on designing weapons systems without proper foreign assistance and with arguably quite poor project leadership to boot. They should have started with license manufacture of an airplane with the 4th gen technology level like a decade ago. Then use that know-how as a base to expand upon into a better system. A lot of Indian weapons programs seem to use what in software engineering is often called the "Big Bang" approach i.e. where they expect you to create something really complex out of basically thin air. Well this clearly does not work.
For example I think that India should have gotten into the Grippen NG program since the Swedes would have been more likely to share their work expertise and know-how than most countries. They also want to develop a lightweight 5th generation aircraft eventually. They have decades of proven design experience. They have designed jet fighters since the late 1940s with no generation gap. All of them were decent designs for their generation. They have typically been at the edge of airframe design. But no. I have heard Indian news reports on that proposal. How Saab basically brings nothing new to India and that India already dominates the technological base. Sure they do! But they have poor experience integrating it and applying it to a functioning design. That is their problem and something they could have learned with the Swedes. But no. Brazil has a more experienced aircraft industry than India has. Embraer is arguably the world leader in the narrow-body small jet segment. Yet see if they were dumb enough to embark on a jet fighter program alone.
Now the Indians got the French to assist them. But the thing is, unless the Indian government continues persisting with their efforts, and does not pull the plug whenever something starts to take too long it is quite likely they will have issues ever getting anything viable.
One example would be the BrahMos missile. The Russians also did joint research with South Korea on the S-350 missile defense system.
I would not be surprised if the Russians also allowed India to manufacture Flanker components with an appropriate license deal. However AFAIK India is not interested in more Flanker derivatives. It is one thing to allow someone to manufacture an older generation aircraft, like the USA tried to do with the F-16 sales to India, quite another to give 100% access to the latest technology. Take the F-35 program as an example. A lot of the foreign partners in the project manufacture parts for the F-35. But the most sensitive technologies are not shared at all. Just see what happened to Turkey. The Turks are quite insistent on technology transfers on all their acquisitions yet they still did not get full access to the entire technology base.
AFAIK India already has the technology base to do a 4 gen or 4.5 gen aircraft. Their problem is they have proven unable to manage a project like that. They have poor experience with integrating all the technology and getting it to work. In that case you either import tech advisors from abroad to help or you keep doing mistakes until you learn. The Chinese were willing to do that. One can argue all one wants about the Flanker clones. But China also has done the J-10 and the FC-1 where they basically developed the whole technology base with the exception of the engines. Well that was not trivial but they did it. But it is not like they had zero experience. I mean they had cloned the MiG-21 and also designed the J-8II which is a non-trivial modification of the MiG-21 technology. It took them decades to do it. But they did not pull the plug on it.
I think most of the issues India has had so far with their weapons technology programs are internal. It is pretty hard to find an indigenous Indian weapons program that has been successful. This is IMHO because of their persistent insistence on designing weapons systems without proper foreign assistance and with arguably quite poor project leadership to boot. They should have started with license manufacture of an airplane with the 4th gen technology level like a decade ago. Then use that know-how as a base to expand upon into a better system. A lot of Indian weapons programs seem to use what in software engineering is often called the "Big Bang" approach i.e. where they expect you to create something really complex out of basically thin air. Well this clearly does not work.
For example I think that India should have gotten into the Grippen NG program since the Swedes would have been more likely to share their work expertise and know-how than most countries. They also want to develop a lightweight 5th generation aircraft eventually. They have decades of proven design experience. They have designed jet fighters since the late 1940s with no generation gap. All of them were decent designs for their generation. They have typically been at the edge of airframe design. But no. I have heard Indian news reports on that proposal. How Saab basically brings nothing new to India and that India already dominates the technological base. Sure they do! But they have poor experience integrating it and applying it to a functioning design. That is their problem and something they could have learned with the Swedes. But no. Brazil has a more experienced aircraft industry than India has. Embraer is arguably the world leader in the narrow-body small jet segment. Yet see if they were dumb enough to embark on a jet fighter program alone.
Now the Indians got the French to assist them. But the thing is, unless the Indian government continues persisting with their efforts, and does not pull the plug whenever something starts to take too long it is quite likely they will have issues ever getting anything viable.
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