Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
- Start date
if they do ,they will somehow manage to shoot themselves in the foot.
like they did with Finemecca
any here's more on the scorpenes
The Russians are seeking another 11 billion dollars for R&D, the Indians are saying we need the aircraft yesterday, and we will purchase the Russian PAK-FA as it is to built for the VVS, and we will negotiate and pay for FGFA later as/if needed??
So the Indians realize that the T-50 as built for the VVS will meet their immediate need for a more capable aircraft, and that the tailor-made Indian bird can and will wait.
The Russians would rather have that 11 billion to help "capitalize" this program and move forward with their own aircraft?
it takes money??? to make money???? ehh, Heh, Heh!
Quon_Duixote
New Member
Gotta give it to the Indians for their insane procurement process ( wait, is there one actually??)..There is scant foresight, forethought or any manner of discipline... This whole Rafale fiasco has had taught the Indians nothing in how to deal with the very very shrewd and cunning arms merchants..its sad and pathetic at the same time #endrant
plawolf
Lieutenant General
India is far too obsessed with China, and the desperation to match China is pulling their entire defense strategy out of shape.
I think people should give the Indian government and military a little more credit. Their decisions do make a certain kind of sense if you understand how massive an impact any news from China can have on their entire decision making process and long term strategy.
The Rafale deal made sense when the best the PLAAF had, and looked likely to have for a while yet, was the J11 and J10 mix.
The IAF thought they would be in a good place with the MKI vs J11B and Rafale vs J10B matchup, and they would have probably been right.
Buying into the FGFA seemed like future proofing for the IAF, where they expected to get fifth gens some years before the PLAAF even if the Russians get PAKFAs first.
The J20 and J31 blew all that out of the water.
Suddenly the IAF was looking down the prospect of seeming J20s on PLAAF frontline service at the same time, if not earlier than PAKFAs in Russian service.
Even though the J31's status is still in limbo, the IAF planners would have ran with the worst case scenario of that too entering PLAAF service, and it would likely do so around the same time as Rafales become operational with the IAF.
MKIs vs J20s and Rafales vs J31s looks decidedly less appealing now.
Cue the shelving of FGFA and instead wanting to just go with Russian standard PAKFAs to try and match expected PLAAF J20 IOC timetables, and the feet dragging and indecision on the Rafale.
I think people should give the Indian government and military a little more credit. Their decisions do make a certain kind of sense if you understand how massive an impact any news from China can have on their entire decision making process and long term strategy.
The Rafale deal made sense when the best the PLAAF had, and looked likely to have for a while yet, was the J11 and J10 mix.
The IAF thought they would be in a good place with the MKI vs J11B and Rafale vs J10B matchup, and they would have probably been right.
Buying into the FGFA seemed like future proofing for the IAF, where they expected to get fifth gens some years before the PLAAF even if the Russians get PAKFAs first.
The J20 and J31 blew all that out of the water.
Suddenly the IAF was looking down the prospect of seeming J20s on PLAAF frontline service at the same time, if not earlier than PAKFAs in Russian service.
Even though the J31's status is still in limbo, the IAF planners would have ran with the worst case scenario of that too entering PLAAF service, and it would likely do so around the same time as Rafales become operational with the IAF.
MKIs vs J20s and Rafales vs J31s looks decidedly less appealing now.
Cue the shelving of FGFA and instead wanting to just go with Russian standard PAKFAs to try and match expected PLAAF J20 IOC timetables, and the feet dragging and indecision on the Rafale.
Brumby
Major
In my view their biggest adversary is themselves. There are two primary drivers that are adding immense complexity onto their procurement process. Firstly is the bureaucratic black hole that does endless reviews and by the time there is actually signed off, technology and cost has significantly changed. That inevitably ends up in further reviews and changes to requirements and so this iteration goes on until it exhaust itself in the process. On top of that you have the change in government and policies in between the iterations that add further variables unto the pot. Secondly, after a decision is taken to go with the program, you then have the indigenous hurdle that gets thrown in and so you end up with another few rounds of negotiations and reviews to bed down a foreign partner (e.g. Rafale). Once that is in place there is the final reality check that local build is a difficult endeavour that requires ramping up of skills, infrastructure and supply chain that is often under estimated (e.g. Scopene). You then have the in between programs like the LCA that after a rather protracted period, you get a small initial batch of planes that no one seems to want to sign off in taking delivery and the focus yet again is shifting towards adding new capabilities and development rather than production.
There is a quote that I like to use when I see this type of problem "we have seen the enemy and he is us".
A Bar Brother
Junior Member
There seems to be a change in the plans, going by the article. It is not necessary for the IAF to get the PAKFA right away. But they could get it a few years before FGFA is ready.
The LCA as a Mig-21 replacement was in the past, more than 2 decades ago. Now, everything is replacing all the Migs. The fact is we have far more Migs than you think. When the LCA project was in its initial stages, we had over 750 Mig-21/23/27s. Once the LCA was delayed, the MKI and Rafale became the alternatives to replace the Migs. The MKIs have directly replaced Mig-21s and Mig-23s. Rafale will directly replace existing Mig-27s. Eventually, FGFA and LCA will replace what's remaining. We still have too many Migs, 14 squadrons as of today even after the induction of 200+ MKIs.
LCA Mk1 won't see more inductions. It will go into training squadrons after development is complete. The twin-seater Mk1s may see more orders though. The Mk2 is the future of the LCA program. And first flight of the air force version is expected in 2018. Its induction is far into the next decade, probably after FGFA is ready.
Rafale negotiations started in 2012.
IAF did not plan on inducting 270 MKIs. The plan was for 230 MKIs and now it looks like they will need 40 more. Eventually even Rafales will cross the 200 mark, possibly even touch 300. 300 MKIs, 200 Rafales, 200 FGFAs, 200 AMCAs, 120+ LCAs is the current goal for the IAF.
In case the Rafale doesn't materialize, then the only fallback option is a lot of T-50s and FGFAs.
A Bar Brother
Junior Member
FMBT Design
This is the Armata T-14. Russian FMBT.