Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

India has no choice outside of Rafale and Su-57 as the two purchases which can modernise the IAF and fire modern weapons. Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI and Mig-29s cannot fire anything that resembles a modern weapon. Talk of upgrading the substantial Su-30MKI fleet to enable new Russian A2G and A2A weapons could do well to modernise a huge part of IAF but it will cost them time and money they could spend on new Rafale and Su-57. This would push PAF to buy more J-10CE to counter more Rafale numbers and consider J-35 to counter Su-57. Money that Pakistan doesn't really have.

F-35s is unlikely for either US to be willing to truly sell and for India to accept given US limitations and political demands. Europe hasn't even got a 5th gen prototype. Turkey has poor relation with India, almost as unlikely as India buying Chinese and South Korea's KF-21 hasn't got an internal weapons bay yet so Su-57 should be similar in RCS compared to recessed fuselage pylons for KF-21. Unlikely to be economical for India though.

ougoah said:

India has no choice outside of Rafale and Su-57 as the two purchases which can modernise the IAF and fire modern weapons. Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI and Mig-29s cannot fire anything that resembles a modern weapon. Talk of upgrading the substantial Su-30MKI fleet to enable new Russian A2G and A2A weapons could do well to modernise a huge part of IAF but it will cost them time and money they could spend on new Rafale and Su-57. This would push PAF to buy more J-10CE to counter more Rafale numbers and consider J-35 to counter Su-57. Money that Pakistan doesn't really have.

F-35s is unlikely for either US to be willing to truly sell and for India to accept given US limitations and political demands. Europe hasn't even got a 5th gen prototype. Turkey has poor relation with India, almost as unlikely as India buying Chinese and South Korea's KF-21 hasn't got an internal weapons bay yet so Su-57 should be similar in RCS compared to recessed fuselage pylons for KF-21. Unlikely to be economical for India though.

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Seriosly what would PAF gain out of the latest Saudi-Pak "Strategic" Defence Agreement if not KSA footing the bill for future j-10CEs/J-35As acquisitions?

ougoah said:

Money that Pakistan doesn't really have.

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Given the new defense pact with Saudi Arabia, you ought to reconsider the money Pakistan has for this kind of thing.

PeaceKrieger424 said:

Seriosly what would PAF gain out of the latest Saudi-Pak "Strategic" Defence Agreement if not KSA footing the bill for future j-10CEs/J-35As acquisitions?

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China would also "aid" pakistan with weapons if needed to maintain parity with India. The point of aiding Pakistan is for them to keep poking India and keeping it down. If Pakistan becomes too weak militarily, they can't perform as the eternal poker of India.

China should also start propping up Bangladesh to act as the poker from the east. Bangladesh is very weak militarily but has much bigger GDP than Pakistan. They have great potential for military buildup.

Srilanka then starts to act from the south. 4 way containment of India from all directions.

PeaceKrieger424 said:

Seriosly what would PAF gain out of the latest Saudi-Pak "Strategic" Defence Agreement if not KSA footing the bill for future j-10CEs/J-35As acquisitions?

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ZeEa5KPul said:

Given the new defense pact with Saudi Arabia, you ought to reconsider the money Pakistan has for this kind of thing.

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Saudi money for PAF shouldn't be considered a sure thing until that money is in Chinese bank accounts. Then we can discuss PAF's ability to engage India in an arms race. The idea of Pakistan playing arms race with India is as ridiculous as Vietnam initiating an arms race against China today.

Is it good news that KSA says it'll bankroll Pakistan's military development? Yes. Let's count those chickens when they hatch first. As of now, Pakistan needs to play it smart and as India's waving its arms around suggesting all sorts of fighter aircraft purchases, Pakistan just needs to work on getting that money and developing a plan of action. See where India's headless chicken routine lands in terms of actual policy and decision. Then counter it. It's super early to say PAF is set for money now. If they have the money later and China has the political desire to sell anything more than a few J-10CEs then we can discuss.

Saudi Arabia provides:

-money (well, obvious);
-secure oil supply in two ways (India gets 1/5 of its oil from SA, too; not a good country to ostracize).
-very powerful air force composition (significant portion with Pakistani pilots anyway), which, crucially, fits all the brackets PAF doesn't (aka lots of heavy fighters and long range strike) to back it up.
All 3 together make it a very significant backup in reverse is well; this isn't one-sided, and i frankly doubt India expected or liked this little present.


Though Saudi Arabia itself is highly vulnerable and visibly overinvsted into air force...

4Tran said:

India isn't going to buy Su-57. I think that it's actually a pretty decent plane. Sure, it may be the least of the fifth gen fighters overall but it'll still be more dangerous than any 4.5 gen out there. There's a lot of negative press about the Su-57 and I think the vast majority of it is undeserved.

The problem with the plane though is that Russia can't build it. Or more accurately, the production rate is so slow that it'll take ages to get any decent number of them. The idea of technology transfer or production in India is also silly for multiple reasons. And even if it could be made, the negativity around the Su-57 is enough that it's not a prestigious plane any more. And as prestige is almost the most important factor in a major arms purchase, I don't see a forseeable world where India adopts it in any numbers.

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I actually like the Su57"Felon"......but not as it is but rather built with advanced Chinese manufacturing/design/materials and Chinese avionics-silicon carbide wafer/GaNt radar sets etc but would it be equal /superior/inferior to J20's-great technical exercise question for AI perhaps to mull upon.If the indians were truly capable -buy it as is full house but IMPROVE it to the highest standard-but alas the indians don't have the industrial/RD scientific to do so -otherwise they would have built their own 5gen fighter intead of bleating for JV's,or complete ToT 's as if anyone would give away such tech crown jewels

Ringsword said:

I actually like the Su57"Felon"......but not as it is but rather built with advanced Chinese manufacturing/design/materials and Chinese avionics-silicon carbide wafer/GaNt radar sets etc but would it be equal /superior/inferior to J20's-great technical exercise question for AI perhaps to mull upon.If the indians were truly capable -buy it as is full house but IMPROVE it to the highest standard-but alas the indians don't have the industrial/RD scientific to do so -otherwise they would have built their own 5gen fighter intead of bleating for JV's,or complete ToT 's as if anyone would give away such tech crown jewels

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Su-57 shouldn't be too different if you change place of execution. Ultimately list of technologies you've provided wasn't available in 2012-2015 not just in Russia, but anywhere else. There are countries which clearly can't produce complex aerospace product to world level - changing place of origin changes everything for, say, Tejas. But in Russia it's measured in appearing later and perhaps at somewhat worse performance per weight/volume, as well as in things like stability; not in that it won't work. I.e. first difference comes from robust commercial sector, second - from money density(basically: more thorough testing through the development cycle).
Good system designer will account for that (sometimes through size, sometimes through roundabout approaches), and Soviet/Russian designs always did; Su-57 most certainly does.

I.e. yes, currently China is going through wide GaN deployment, Russia isn't. But it appears (no certainity, so treat with care) that Su-57M will be more or less that, by ~2027.
I.e. comparing Su-57 v J-20A makes tactical, but not industrial sense. Corresponding russian aircraft is also "FOC" version of Felon, which probably checks all the same boxes, but 2 years later. Much like the original Su-57 v.J-20(though there it was for different reasons, but still).