Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
China did very, very well with the SU-27SK ToT. The issue is not the Russians.
Yeah because the production was mandated to be in production in China and Chinese had more leeway and control to tinker with the license built they had.
If China had tried to purchase the Gorshkov from Russia and get them to fix it then you would have run through similar issues. Lol
Guess there's also a reason the Chinese turned to Ukraine to get their first Carrier and service it themselves. Even so there was some issues that almost hold up this transaction/delivery..
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah because the production was mandated to be in production in China and Chinese had more leeway and control to tinker with the license built they had.
If China had tried to purchase the Gorshkov from Russia and get them to fix it then you would have run through similar issues. Lol
Guess there's also a reason the Chinese turned to Ukraine to get their first Carrier and service it themselves. Even so there was some issues that almost hold up this transaction/delivery..

No, that was solely because the Varyag was only available vessel worth salvaging.

Remember, China had and still has both of the Gorshkov's sisters the Minsk and the Kiev. They were shit and China never bothered converting them.

Again, the problem was with the buyer.
 

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
No, that was solely because the Varyag was only available vessel worth salvaging.

Remember, China had and still has both of the Gorshkov's sisters the Minsk and the Kiev. They were shit and China never bothered converting them.

Again, the problem was with the buyer.
Interesting. When Russian offered to sell the Minsk and Kiev to China did they also offer to convert/maintain them back to full service?
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting. When Russian offered to sell the Minsk and Kiev to China did they also offer to convert/maintain them back to full service?

No. They were sold to private investors for salvage. Minsk came to China via South Korea. Kiev was sold directly to China as scrap.

China wouldn't have bought them for anything else. Anyone, except Indians, could tell that the Kiev-class with its massive superstructure would take massive work to convert and even then it would be a poor re-work. Very unlike the Varyag.

This thing had less landing deck than a LHD:
IMG_5045.jpeg

The Varyag was a floating hulk but it was a true carrier (after getting rid of the AShMs)
IMG_5043.jpeg

Again, it's the buyers.
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Since PAF is allegedly receiving J-35 ground based fighters in coming years, IAF will feel obliged to purchase stop gap 5th gen fighters until their AMCA reaches IAF service. AMCA looks like it's over 15 years away from IAF service, by their own admission, around 10 years.

They have not even a single known tech demonstrator (assumption) let alone a static test prototype, let alone a flying prototype. Their journalists seem to have confused a plastic + fibreglass + wood mockup with a prototype. What they've displayed is NOT a test product of any sort.

This means they will likely purchase either the Su-57 or F-35 as the only commercially available fighters outside of the J-35 which they can't and won't buy for obvious reasons. F-35 can be sold to India. Certainly more so with Trump and Musk in power. F-35 would be the better choice to purchase even though the strings attached are more substantial than Su-57. IAF F-35s are guaranteed to be permitted to work against China. So for IAF, why not go for the superior combat platform? Even without the networking strengths of F-35, it is still a better BVR fighter than Su-57. Plus if IAF purchases Su-57, China can just buy a minimum order down the line and test and train against it to develop the best tactics to counter it a la UK with France during Falklands wrt Argentine Exocet missiles and Mirages. In that example the UK didn't even have any examples to train against, just the specs.

Considering Su-57 would be totally stupid of India. There's nothing stopping China to buy 24 or maybe even fewer as a modern Su-35. It could even serve the same role Su-35 has served and is serving in PLAAF - opfor training, study, and forward deployed during peacetime to hide mainstay fighter digital signatures.

Oh and the Su-75 is not that much closer to actual service than Indian AMCA is. So... yeah that's not really an option either. KF-21 you may as well buy F-35, similar strings and with F-35, it's much more capable. KAAN is about as an option to India as J-35 is.
Just because a platform is operational and has seen combat doesn't mean it's a good or even a safe option. See the F-104 for example. Americans have the money and numbers to paint over any number of cracks (in the F-35s case, literally).

Also the Russians haven't spent the last 30 years continuously at war like America has. I'd attribute the su-57s sluggish development to the Russian lack of desire. Things have obviously picked up since the Ukraine war. Orders will take years to fulfill. so I'd imagine the Russians may have ironed out any kinks on their flagship jet.

Having said that, the Su-57 is really an option for India. Indians often replace the avionics and various other interfaces on their Russian jets with western ones. I can't imagine the Russians being happy about French or American engineers poking around their planes once in Indian hands. Part of me thinks the reason the Russians bring out the Su-57 demonstrator to the airshows is to say, "look, we can make advanced 5th gen aircraft too, now here's some cheaper jets we want to sell you".

Also, *if* the Su-57 is as good as the Russians claim it is, why wouldn't they be inducting as many of them as they can make for the next 10-15 years? The Russians are swimming in money right now so they aren't exactly looking to making a quick buck.

As to why the Indians won't adopt the F-35? Cost is the obvious one. Not only the initial and maintainance costs. Inducing such an expensive platform could potentially mean the end of many of the joint ventures with Russia. Indians even struggled to make a firearm without Russian assistance. The Americans may be happy to sell F-35 with railguards, but what about nuclear submarines, ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers. etc? Even if they are, can the Indians afford it?

So in sum I don't think either is a good option for India. Best they can do is to sit on their thumbs and hope Pakistan doesn't induct J-35s first; buying either platform will result in that being a fait accompli.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Also, *if* the Su-57 is as good as the Russians claim it is, why wouldn't they be inducting as many of them as they can make for the next 10-15 years? The Russians are swimming in money right now so they aren't exactly looking to making a quick buck.
Because VKS just replaced its MRF strength onto 4++ gen fighters in 2010s, and didn't need all that many fighters in 2020s. Unlike, say, China, which does need to replace a lot of outgoing aircraft.
Otherwise, it goes through an absolutely normal ramp up, comparable to other fighters of modern era. F-15EX doesn't get produced in hundreds a year.
On one hand, su-57 fleet is indeed relatively small. On the other, it's already arond 1/4 of VKS Su-35 fleet, and is supposed to reach 1/2 of it in next two years. VKS isn't all that big.
It's extremely diverse, with full range of all aircraft of all purposes - legacy of superpower status. But the other side of the coin is that its MRF strength isn't exactly impressive even by second tier powers(say, India).
 

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Because VKS just replaced its MRF strength onto 4++ gen fighters in 2010s, and didn't need all that many fighters in 2020s. Unlike, say, China, which does need to replace a lot of outgoing aircraft.
Otherwise, it goes through an absolutely normal ramp up, comparable to other fighters of modern era. F-15EX doesn't get produced in hundreds a year.
On one hand, su-57 fleet is indeed relatively small. On the other, it's already arond 1/4 of VKS Su-35 fleet, and is supposed to reach 1/2 of it in next two years. VKS isn't all that big.
It's extremely diverse, with full range of all aircraft of all purposes - legacy of superpower status. But the other side of the coin is that its MRF strength isn't exactly impressive even by second tier powers(say, India).
How many Su-57 are Russia going to make even with the most optimistic projections? The Americans make 100+ F-35 a month. Is it even that annually?

Granted they aren't the same platform and the Americans have a lot of aircraft to replace but if they were making low numbers Russia is you can bet they wouldn't be exporting it.

What does Russia gain from selling the small number of Su-57 to India that they may ask for, with all the headaches of an Indian military deal that it couldn't get from selling a few tankers of oil or fertiliser?
 

Antey1

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The Americans make 100+ F-35 a month

100+ F-35 a month? a BOLD statement. You know how ridiculous is that? That would be 1200 F-35 a year.

They are making aprox 100 a year. Yes. Still huge numbers.

Right now there are 30 to 40 not including prototypes. We don't know the exact numbers because of the ukraine war. But soon it will end and we will know better. Production lines can be expanded based on orders. Russia is producing 12-18 a year now. They could produce up to 30 a year in a few years. That's enough to fulfill contracts.

And...

VKS is not that big, they need at least 350-400 of them until 2040. They also have (aprox 140) Su-35S, (aprox 160) Su-34/NVO/M, (aprox 130) Su-30SM/SM2, and aprox 30 other variants (Su-30M2, Su-27SM3). Thats 450 fighters that will last at least 25 to 30 years in operation. I doubt the VKS/VMF AF surpass 1000 fighters in the future. They will want 150 PAK-DP to reeplace MiG-31BM/BSM in 2030-2040. And that's it.

What i'm saying with this is, VKS is evolving at their phase, they don't need and can't afford 3000 5th gen fighters. It's the same with every single country out there. China made houndreds of fighters in the last decade. They won't ditch them because they are 4,5 gen. They will remain in operation. Same with india, europe, everyone. The US well... they urgently need new fighters, most of their fleet is old.
 
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