Indian Economics thread.

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have been on defence forum india with the name Chandragupt Maurya (Biggest empire in Indian subcontinent from Bihar province of India)
though most of the indians are morons but there are some sensible people as well
You can imagine the height of inferiority complex they have that there national capital is Delhi (A city from where Mughals and British ruled India) they didn’t even change the name and if you ask them shifting the political capital to Pataliputra (present day patna) they will make fun of you they will start abusing their own heritage and ancestry this is something unique about indians and Pakistanis both
They will debunk every chinese project as impossible be it the railways or roadways in tibbet or the kerung-Kathmandu railway or the china laos railway that’s the reason why they were not able to make toilets till 2019 because they think every infrastructure project in impossible

The Indian capacity for self deception, even conscious self deception, is indeed far greater than east Asian capacity for the same. This is a cultural artifact that probably have much to do with religions, how deeply rooted they are, and how they developed over time. East Asians are overwhelmingly (there are temples churches mosques and shrines but such a small % of people engage and dominate their lives with it) more agnostic or even atheist if not at least holding only very personal and private (not shared) beliefs. But real world stuff is culturally rooted in reality and there is strong separation between beliefs and real world actions, decision making etc. When it comes to superstitions though, this is still rampant in all of east Asia including Japan. Not even the Communist Chinese managed to rid China of this despite effort. I mean I bet plenty of CPC members in real leadership positions are themselves superstitious to some degree.

However there is a difference between allowing superstition and in India's case, even encouraging intense levels of self deception. Those forums are near useless unless you just want to keep up to date with Indian military projects for which it is useful indeed. Basically anything away from cultural identities, race-ethnicity, and politics, it's okayish albeit with sprinklings of ridiculousness like as soon as they see some project announced in its infancy, it's immediately the greatest and will boost India to the top of the world and as soon as they see even plastic models displayed or in "initial concept trials" like cheap laser modules they buy from Aliexpress or RC planes like Ghatak "prototype", they consider it nearly ready to devastate the enemy. Compare it to this forum where most are Chinese, there is nowhere near that level of self assuredness until things are actually shown in service (which is already far more "Chinese" in character and we rarely see anything in development when they've probably been since 20 years before they're seen). There's also far more doubt and skepticism on this forum or at least nowhere near Indian levels of immediate and absolute celebratory intensity for every small model or prototype.

I mean India fires a Brahmos test and these members go into heat calling this the best missile in the world despite being 30 odd years old and rejected by even 1990s China when it was offered. China tests hypersonic cruise missiles and HGVs carried by boosters, photos shown of impact accuracy, US state reports on it and reputable third parties produce literature on such things and we get maybe 10 members commenting with even less enthusiasm as India simply test firing a "new air launched" Brahmos "development". Indeed there are plenty and plenty of very sane and intelligent Indians... even in India still. But the voices online are dominated by the village idiot equivalent. The variety and caliber of people similar to actually extremist and uneducated people in China back during the warring period/Civil war and revolution era. Under or completely uneducated, misinformed, brainwashed, and deluded. The difference is those Chinese people of that era took their labour towards building and doing whereas the equivalent generations of Indian take their efforts to the internet to talk shit while their government tries every effort to win elections and do nothing much in the way of genuine progress. India has been stagnating for the last 20 years... pretty much every big picture metric proves this two times over and over the span of decades.
 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The Indian capacity for self deception, even conscious self deception, is indeed far greater than east Asian capacity for the same. This is a cultural artifact that probably have much to do with religions and how they develop over time. East Asians are overwhelmingly more agnostic or even atheist if not at least holding only very personal and private (not shared) beliefs. But real world stuff is culturally rooted in reality and there is strong separation between beliefs and real world actions, decision making etc. When it comes to superstitions though, this is still rampant in all of east Asia including Japan. Not even the Communist Chinese managed to rid China of this despite effort. I mean I bet plenty of CPC members in real leadership positions are themselves superstitious to some degree.

However there is a difference between allowing superstition and in India's case, even encouraging intense levels of self deception. Those forums are near useless unless you just want to keep up to date with Indian military projects for which it is useful indeed. Basically anything away from cultural identities, race-ethnicity, and politics, it's okayish albeit with sprinklings of ridiculousness like as soon as they see some project announced in its infancy, it's immediately the greatest and will boost India to the top of the world and as soon as they see even plastic models displayed or in "initial concept trials" like cheap laser modules they buy from Aliexpress or RC planes like Ghatak "prototype", they consider it nearly ready to devastate the enemy. Compare it to this forum where most are Chinese, there is nowhere near that level of self assuredness until things are actually shown in service (which is already far more "Chinese" in character and we rarely see anything in development when they've probably been since 20 years before they're seen). There's also far more doubt and skepticism on this forum or at least nowhere near Indian levels of immediate and absolute celebratory intensity for every small model or prototype.

I mean India fires a Brahmos test and these members go into heat calling this the best missile in the world despite being 30 odd years old and rejected by even 1990s China when it was offered. China tests hypersonic cruise missiles and HGVs carried by boosters, photos shown of impact accuracy, US state reports on it and reputable third parties produce literature on such things and we get maybe 10 members commenting with even less enthusiasm as India simply test firing a "new air launched" Brahmos "development".

Let's not pretend that pre-revolution China is any better in this regard.

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In the story, there are many scenes that reveal Ah Q's personality. One of the Ah Q's personality traits is that, no matter what happens, Ah Q always makes an excuse to get out of a tight spot. For instance, in Chapter 3 of the book, the author writes that after the fight Ah Q uses his "precious 'ability to forget'", which shows that he does not have enough courage to deal with his emotions and, instead, uses this "ability" just to satisfy himself.

A strong character trait of Ah Q is his limited focus on himself and his own outlook. Ah Q does not consider how others view him, engage in
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or
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; this is demonstrated in Chapter 4 during the incident with the young mistress,
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Wu (吳媽), when he abruptly asks her to sleep with him. In result, Ah Q's actions are strange and at times offend others. However, this does not bother Ah Q because he neither notices nor cares because he is strictly focused on his own needs and desires.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Let's not pretend that pre-revolution China is any better in this regard.

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China during the revolution was the worst but sure, pre-revolution was bad, certainly in modernity.

India is in that sort of state and they delude themselves plenty not just in what they have and can achieve in this state but also in the reality of the state itself. Most Indians consider India to be a functional nation. Even the worst generations of village idiots of China's pre-revolution and revolution era were at least working and more productive.

The Indians simply want to say they are productive and amazing, then engage in enthusiastic self deception to then believe in what they say. China's worst era of village idiots didn't do it to anywhere near that degree.
 

Chandragupt

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Indian capacity for self deception, even conscious self deception, is indeed far greater than east Asian capacity for the same. This is a cultural artifact that probably have much to do with religions, how deeply rooted they are, and how they developed over time. East Asians are overwhelmingly (there are temples churches mosques and shrines but such a small % of people engage and dominate their lives with it) more agnostic or even atheist if not at least holding only very personal and private (not shared) beliefs. But real world stuff is culturally rooted in reality and there is strong separation between beliefs and real world actions, decision making etc. When it comes to superstitions though, this is still rampant in all of east Asia including Japan. Not even the Communist Chinese managed to rid China of this despite effort. I mean I bet plenty of CPC members in real leadership positions are themselves superstitious to some degree.

However there is a difference between allowing superstition and in India's case, even encouraging intense levels of self deception. Those forums are near useless unless you just want to keep up to date with Indian military projects for which it is useful indeed. Basically anything away from cultural identities, race-ethnicity, and politics, it's okayish albeit with sprinklings of ridiculousness like as soon as they see some project announced in its infancy, it's immediately the greatest and will boost India to the top of the world and as soon as they see even plastic models displayed or in "initial concept trials" like cheap laser modules they buy from Aliexpress or RC planes like Ghatak "prototype", they consider it nearly ready to devastate the enemy. Compare it to this forum where most are Chinese, there is nowhere near that level of self assuredness until things are actually shown in service (which is already far more "Chinese" in character and we rarely see anything in development when they've probably been since 20 years before they're seen). There's also far more doubt and skepticism on this forum or at least nowhere near Indian levels of immediate and absolute celebratory intensity for every small model or prototype.

I mean India fires a Brahmos test and these members go into heat calling this the best missile in the world despite being 30 odd years old and rejected by even 1990s China when it was offered. China tests hypersonic cruise missiles and HGVs carried by boosters, photos shown of impact accuracy, US state reports on it and reputable third parties produce literature on such things and we get maybe 10 members commenting with even less enthusiasm as India simply test firing a "new air launched" Brahmos "development". Indeed there are plenty and plenty of very sane and intelligent Indians... even in India still. But the voices online are dominated by the village idiot equivalent. The variety and caliber of people similar to actually extremist and uneducated people in China back during the warring period/Civil war and revolution era. Under or completely uneducated, misinformed, brainwashed, and deluded. The difference is those Chinese people of that era took their labour towards building and doing whereas the equivalent generations of Indian take their efforts to the internet to talk shit while their government tries every effort to win elections and do nothing much in the way of genuine progress. India has been stagnating for the last 20 years... pretty much every big picture metric proves this two times over and over the span of decades.
China remains the biggest trading partner of India and the trade will keep increasing there is no other option either for china or India
The proposed High speed rail projects in India include Delhi-Mumbai and the Delhi-Kolkata High speed rail corridor The Delhi-Kolkata HSRC is passing via a city called Patna (in eastern side of india) which is only 300 kilometres away from Kathmandu (the capital of Nepal)
China has also proposed Beijing-Kathmandu High speed rail corridor (which indians as usual dismiss as impossible) if India and china both these countries extend their high speed rail corridor to Kathmandu then it would be possible to travel from Delhi to Beijing via Raxaul-Kathmandu-Kerung route
Once I mentioned this on indian defence forum all of them Except few started Calling it impossible they even started calling the Delhi Patna high speed rail corridor as impossible which is finalised by Indian railways itself
 

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
The Indian capacity for self deception, even conscious self deception, is indeed far greater than east Asian capacity for the same. This is a cultural artifact that probably have much to do with religions, how deeply rooted they are, and how they developed over time. East Asians are overwhelmingly (there are temples churches mosques and shrines but such a small % of people engage and dominate their lives with it) more agnostic or even atheist if not at least holding only very personal and private (not shared) beliefs. But real world stuff is culturally rooted in reality and there is strong separation between beliefs and real world actions, decision making etc. When it comes to superstitions though, this is still rampant in all of east Asia including Japan. Not even the Communist Chinese managed to rid China of this despite effort. I mean I bet plenty of CPC members in real leadership positions are themselves superstitious to some degree.

However there is a difference between allowing superstition and in India's case, even encouraging intense levels of self deception. Those forums are near useless unless you just want to keep up to date with Indian military projects for which it is useful indeed. Basically anything away from cultural identities, race-ethnicity, and politics, it's okayish albeit with sprinklings of ridiculousness like as soon as they see some project announced in its infancy, it's immediately the greatest and will boost India to the top of the world and as soon as they see even plastic models displayed or in "initial concept trials" like cheap laser modules they buy from Aliexpress or RC planes like Ghatak "prototype", they consider it nearly ready to devastate the enemy. Compare it to this forum where most are Chinese, there is nowhere near that level of self assuredness until things are actually shown in service (which is already far more "Chinese" in character and we rarely see anything in development when they've probably been since 20 years before they're seen). There's also far more doubt and skepticism on this forum or at least nowhere near Indian levels of immediate and absolute celebratory intensity for every small model or prototype.

I mean India fires a Brahmos test and these members go into heat calling this the best missile in the world despite being 30 odd years old and rejected by even 1990s China when it was offered. China tests hypersonic cruise missiles and HGVs carried by boosters, photos shown of impact accuracy, US state reports on it and reputable third parties produce literature on such things and we get maybe 10 members commenting with even less enthusiasm as India simply test firing a "new air launched" Brahmos "development". Indeed there are plenty and plenty of very sane and intelligent Indians... even in India still. But the voices online are dominated by the village idiot equivalent. The variety and caliber of people similar to actually extremist and uneducated people in China back during the warring period/Civil war and revolution era. Under or completely uneducated, misinformed, brainwashed, and deluded. The difference is those Chinese people of that era took their labour towards building and doing whereas the equivalent generations of Indian take their efforts to the internet to talk shit while their government tries every effort to win elections and do nothing much in the way of genuine progress. India has been stagnating for the last 20 years... pretty much every big picture metric proves this two times over and over the span of decades.

On the flip side, this makes them extremely proficient at creating and peddling BS propaganda, even better than the Americans.
Manifested individually as the world-famous Indian self promotion power...
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
China remains the biggest trading partner of India and the trade will keep increasing there is no other option either for china or India
The proposed High speed rail projects in India include Delhi-Mumbai and the Delhi-Kolkata High speed rail corridor The Delhi-Kolkata HSRC is passing via a city called Patna (in eastern side of india) which is only 300 kilometres away from Kathmandu (the capital of Nepal)
China has also proposed Beijing-Kathmandu High speed rail corridor (which indians as usual dismiss as impossible) if India and china both these countries extend their high speed rail corridor to Kathmandu then it would be possible to travel from Delhi to Beijing via Raxaul-Kathmandu-Kerung route
Once I mentioned this on indian defence forum all of them Except few started Calling it impossible they even started calling the Delhi Patna high speed rail corridor as impossible which is finalised by Indian railways itself

It's not technically impossible but it's highly unlikely because it would require a purpose. There is no purpose in creating a Delhi to Beijing HSR route... via anywhere. There's little money to be made, both countries have very little interest overall in travel. Close to 70% of Indian people live on less than $2 USD per day. Over 90% of Indians would be considered poverty stricken by western standards and so around 10% or so of India can actually afford to travel and spend money in a way that monetarily justify the construction of the route? Majority of Chinese people have little interest in traveling to India and out of the portion which do, understand it is extremely dangerous and many now have an understanding that the Indians are pretty racist and hate filled. You've been to the Indian Defence Forum so you can probably tell. Sure not the majority are like that but it's pretty much up there.

There's also no diplomatic purpose in establishing such a line. The trade that is between India and China is because India has little to no alternative still. China doesn't really need to be buying so much stuff from India. Out of the things it buys from India, all of them are easily replaceable. It's mostly raw materials and processed chemicals which are sourced from China itself at many times the volumes but the Indians do offer stuff China buys at an agreeable price and the trade deficit is balanced somewhat by some purchases otherwise it would be Indian buying billions worth per year from China while China buy a few million from India if it could be helped. India wouldn't last without buying from China. They'd either have to find cheaper supply (good luck and see if it works out for you), develop their own (not done despite decades of big talk), or buy much more expensive which means decline in economic progress for obvious reasons.

Let me say this, if the Indians could help it, they wouldn't buy a cent worth of product from China. Internet fanboys and trolls talk a lot of shit but not a single one has a real and unbiased understanding of how money, economics, and industry works. The usual copium they then use is "China stole it all"... which for westerners is ironic because actually stole it all... mostly wealth from the Indians!
 

Chandragupt

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's not technically impossible but it's highly unlikely because it would require a purpose. There is no purpose in creating a Delhi to Beijing HSR route... via anywhere. There's little money to be made, both countries have very little interest overall in travel. Close to 70% of Indian people live on less than $2 USD per day. Over 90% of Indians would be considered poverty stricken by western standards and so around 10% or so of India can actually afford to travel and spend money in a way that monetarily justify the construction of the route? Majority of Chinese people have little interest in traveling to India and out of the portion which do, understand it is extremely dangerous and many now have an understanding that the Indians are pretty racist and hate filled. You've been to the Indian Defence Forum so you can probably tell. Sure not the majority are like that but it's pretty much up there.

There's also no diplomatic purpose in establishing such a line. The trade that is between India and China is because India has little to no alternative still. China doesn't really need to be buying so much stuff from India. Out of the things it buys from India, all of them are easily replaceable. It's mostly raw materials and processed chemicals which are sourced from China itself at many times the volumes but the Indians do offer stuff China buys at an agreeable price and the trade deficit is balanced somewhat by some purchases otherwise it would be Indian buying billions worth per year from China while China buy a few million from India if it could be helped. India wouldn't last without buying from China. They'd either have to find cheaper supply (good luck and see if it works out for you), develop their own (not done despite decades of big talk), or buy much more expensive which means decline in economic progress for obvious reasons.

Let me say this, if the Indians could help it, they wouldn't buy a cent worth of product from China. Internet fanboys and trolls talk a lot of shit but not a single one has a real and unbiased understanding of how money, economics, and industry works. The usual copium they then use is "China stole it all"... which for westerners is ironic because actually stole it all... mostly wealth from the Indians!
Those who can afford to travel on aircraft can easily afford to travel on High Speed Rail and this per capita GDP thing is not accurate it’s heavily underestimated in case of India
Indian Government is trying to establish land connectivity with South East Asian countries but because of the slow land acquisition process in Myanmar it’s getting delayed
As for the racism part what I have experienced is that the eastern side of India which includes Bihar and north Bengal is more accoustomed to mongoloid faces like mine maybe because of borders with Nepal or because of Buddhist tourists from East Asian countries
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's also no diplomatic purpose in establishing such a line. The trade that is between India and China is because India has little to no alternative still. China doesn't really need to be buying so much stuff from India. Out of the things it buys from India, all of them are easily replaceable. It's mostly raw materials and processed chemicals which are sourced from China itself at many times the volumes but the Indians do offer stuff China buys at an agreeable price and the trade deficit is balanced somewhat by some purchases otherwise it would be Indian buying billions worth per year from China while China buy a few million from India if it could be helped. India wouldn't last without buying from China. They'd either have to find cheaper supply (good luck and see if it works out for you), develop their own (not done despite decades of big talk), or buy much more expensive which means decline in economic progress for obvious reasons.

Let me say this, if the Indians could help it, they wouldn't buy a cent worth of product from China. Internet fanboys and trolls talk a lot of shit but not a single one has a real and unbiased understanding of how money, economics, and industry works. The usual copium they then use is "China stole it all"... which for westerners is ironic because actually stole it all... mostly wealth from the Indians!

To expand on this point, I'm not referring to stuff India already does for itself e.g. car manufacturing which it does. I'm referring only to stuff it needs to import to sustain life, business, and the functioning of society.

The reason the American trade war on China failed - trade deficit after trade war widened YoY, US administrations started dismantling tariffs one by one, and American manufacturing industry NOT having become reawakened by Trump, because like I said back in 2018, that's not how trade works.

As for Indians replacing imported goods they absolutely can do it. They have the brains and even the organisational power to achieve this because it honestly isn't even hard. They're also in the prime economic position to exploit it. They have excess labour, resourceful people (among the village idiots), extremely cheap labour. But despite 6 decades of being in this position, they've failed to do this and properly pull it off. I'm not sure if it's a western influence that is rather stealthy in preventing and disrupting genuine efforts and siphoning off money back to the west (which btw is happening and has been happening)... it's like the Indians are still paying interest for being victim. Their wealthiest siphon off money and continue growing wealthier. The Indian living standards haven't really moved at all for 70 years. The only difference in living standards is a result of technology improving over time. Instead of excessive poverty and hopelessness, there's now excessive poverty and smartphones. While it takes a western consumer two week's worth of savings to buy a flagship phone, an average India would require many months of savings to buy a the lowest entry level of a budget phone.

They can be making their own brands of white goods and everyday consumer items and exploit the advantages of their current situation but relatively little progress is made. Every time they simply celebrate a new foreign brand opening up a manufacturing line in India. Then nothing. The route to learning, mastering, then copying something isn't even taken. It takes decades for one's industry to develop through those cycles and India has yet to even begin the learning phase. Any half competent person leaves if they can.

Then there's the whole building up of infrastructure to support the revitalisation of industry. It is built on logistics. Very little effort there as well. Anyway if they like self deception, they are very welcome to it as other nations outcompete India in their niche ways e.g. Vietnam, Bangladesh, Philippines, Thailand.

I don't see why there shouldn't be Indian made furniture, clothing, consumer goods, cheaper electronics, components and everything in between being sourced from India. It has far cheaper labour than China and even many others. And yet there's more made in Vietnam and Bangladesh in the West than there is made in India.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Those who can afford to travel on aircraft can easily afford to travel on High Speed Rail and this per capita GDP thing is not accurate it’s heavily underestimated in case of India
Indian Government is trying to establish land connectivity with South East Asian countries but because of the slow land acquisition process in Myanmar it’s getting delayed
As for the racism part what I have experienced is that the eastern side of India which includes Bihar and north Bengal is more accoustomed to mongoloid faces like mine maybe because of borders with Nepal or because of Buddhist tourists from East Asian countries

They can afford to travel on =/= can afford to travel on, arrive in, spend thousands on accommodation and food, spend money on travel within a country, buy stuff, entry fees for whatever etc general spending.

Less than 10% of the entire Indian population can afford to do this in even China let alone more expensive destinations. Unless they want to spend unwise levels of their savings to do this.

As for racism, only recently more east Asian looking Indians were being attacked by other Indians just for looking Chinese. That's how bad it is. No dark skinned Indian or dark skinned person in China was violently attacked because they resemble an Indian. There's racism everywhere but Indians have been violently racist and Indian racism is another level entirely. The racism against Muslims (not technically race but intolerance due to assigned identity) and Asian looking people are just on another level of frequency and brutality than literally anywhere else. While some ignorant and racist elderly Chinese person may have outdated opinions on certain group, they aren't going to attack you because of that and they're not even really going to talk to you and abuse you verbally. In India plenty of Chinese tourists report verbal abuse and some report assault. As backwards as China can be in these departments, India really is on another level. White tourists will probably have very different experiences lol.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Those who can afford to travel on aircraft can easily afford to travel on High Speed Rail and this per capita GDP thing is not accurate it’s heavily underestimated in case of India
Indian Government is trying to establish land connectivity with South East Asian countries but because of the slow land acquisition process in Myanmar it’s getting delayed
As for the racism part what I have experienced is that the eastern side of India which includes Bihar and north Bengal is more accoustomed to mongoloid faces like mine maybe because of borders with Nepal or because of Buddhist tourists from East Asian countries

I think it's much smarter for China to simply ignore India and not try and engage it with attempts to improve anything.

Engage with rest of Asia. This is the key to undermining and then toppling Western hegemony. Something Indians should be enthusiastic participants in but hatred and jealousy is their go to instead. They'll talk about border disputes at this point and how evil China is etc etc usual trope and narratives.
 
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