India incursion and Chinese standoff at Dolam, Bhutan

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Which issues have Nepal directly cooperated with China on, against forces that are countering China's progress and sovereignty?

There's always the Tibet issue. Look at how Nepal is very cooperative on this.

But I expect Tibet will be a non-issue in 20 years time, given the assimilation/integration that is happening.

Plus remember that Indian Army personnel currently roam freely inside Bhutan. So they try to push Bhutan into a pro-India position and can work against Chinese influence (economic+political) inside Bhutan.

An independent Bhutan would not allow that to happen, as they would value economic ties with both China and India.

---

NY Times article on the Tibetan language and Mandarin Chinese teaching below.

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Economist Article on the Inner Mongolia assimilation model below

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In summary, the government's interest is in pushing Mandarin language teaching at the expense of Tibetan, because this will speed up the assimilation/integration process. At the same time, Mandarin language skills are really important for exams, universities and jobs, so there are also huge practical reasons for Mandarin language proficiency.

I expect after 20 years that the government will feel comfortable enough to relax control over language teaching because Tibet will be largely assimilated through education. Plus Mandarin Chinese will be even more important because it will be backed up by an economy which is at least twice the size of the USA, with corresponding influence in terms of companies, economics and in the media.
 
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The prize for this standoff goes well beyond Bhutan and is the state and direction of China-India relations themselves. China and India will always have some friction as they are neighboring major powers with the aspiration and wherewithal to pursue their own agendas, sometimes even playing each other and additional countries off, but they also have much convergent interests as independent-minded Asian developing countries neighboring each other and competing with all the other major powers as well. If China-India relations lean towards even just neutral competition rather than enmity then it is certainly win-win for both, hopefully it evolves towards mutual benefit.
 

Shaolian

Junior Member
Registered Member
After this episode, I'm having a lot of reservation about the potential of India to develop into a truly advanced, modern and prosperous society. It's behavior is akin to a spoilt child but having a rich and powerful dad behind his back.

I don't see India gaining anything tangible apart from draining any goodwill that the Chinese has of them pre-Doklam crisis. Their geo-political influence over Bhutan took a hit, as well as having their previous delusion of having the backing of so-called western allies when it really mattered, shattered. And roads in Doklam will still get built regardless. And yet they seem so satisfied just because their actions managed to annoyed China.

If this is their only ambition, I don't see how India could ever developed to be an equal to all the "developed" nations of the world. Their value as a true partner of China in the future is thus very much over-stated.

India should be careful to choose its actions wisely in the coming few decades, otherwise its fortunes could be even worse than what its having now. Sad, but true.
 

weig2000

Captain
While some people here and elsewhere are busy keeping the immediate scores, others are starting to look at the bigger picture in the aftermath of Dolam standoff. Here is one from the Hindustan:

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Happymon Jacob

India must engage China a lot more. The BRICS meet is a good occasion to initiate a dedicated backchannel

The resolution of the
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, that lasted close to two and a half months, is a much-awaited and welcome development where patient statecraft and deft diplomacy seem to have paid off. Even as several significant questions remain unanswered about the terms and conditions of the resolution, it provides New Delhi and Beijing an opportunity to reflect over what went wrong and rejig this important bilateral relationship. The upcoming visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to China to attend the BRICS summit will provide the two sides such an opportunity.

“War is the continuation of politics by other means,” observed the Prussian military theorist Carl von Clausewitz in his classic work, On War. In other words, military strategy should flow from carefully considered political thinking. Now that we have arrived at a peaceful resolution at Doklam, we need to examine the political strategy guiding India’s military deployment at Doklam. Moreover, are there any lessons we can learn from this military stand-off with China?

‘Self-help’ world
The most self-evident lesson from the Doklam stand-off is that we inhabit a ‘self-help’ world wherein China is a world power — India is on its own and would have to fend for itself in case of a clash with China, a country with which every major state in the international system has a robust economic relationship. It is important to note that none of the major powers unambiguously and unreservedly supported India’s position on Doklam. In fact, even Bhutan kept a studied silence through the latter part of the stand-off. New Delhi, therefore, must carefully review the scenarios and consider its options before upping the ante. Moreover, regarding Doklam, instead of inviting military attention to itself and trapping itself in a conflict with Beijing, New Delhi could have convinced Thimphu to be more vocal about Bhutan’s territorial rights.

The second lesson from the Doklam stand-off is that China is unlikely to respect India’s ‘special relationships’ with its neighbours. India has long enjoyed a special status in the South Asian region and often treated it as its exclusive backyard. With China expanding its influence in the region and competing for status and influence, the ‘middle kingdom’ considers South Asia, with India in it, as its periphery. China uses economic incentives and military pressure to do so. Nepal is an example of the former, and Bhutan of the latter. Recall Bhutan, besides India, is the only country from the region that did not attend China’s recent Belt and Road Forum in Beijing. India’s traditional policy towards South Asia, of limited economic assistance topped with a big brother attitude, will need to undergo fundamental transformation to retain its influence.

Midway through the stand-off there had been concerns in New Delhi about how the Doklam stand-off would eventually pan out. It is pertinent to ask whether Doklam is so fundamental to Indian interests that we were willing to risk a possible military skirmish with China based on the sketchy clauses of the India-Bhutan friendship treaty. The lesson for us is clear: we should consider all odds and evaluate the merit of the cause before making military commitments.

Four, hyper-nationalism does not pay when it comes to dealing with China. China, simply put, is not Pakistan, and Indian political parties cannot make any domestic gains by whipping up nationalist passions against China. India needs to engage China diplomatically to resolve outstanding conflicts rather than engage in a war of words, or worse, threaten to use force. For sure, it is not 1962, and that’s true for both parties.

Five, the Doklam stand-off is a direct fallout of the Indian and Bhutanese refusal to be part of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). While this round may have concluded without any of the three sides getting hurt, this is unlikely to be the last of Chinese designs against India or Bhutan. Surely India cannot, and should not, acquiesce to the BRI just because of Chinese pressure. And yet, at the end of the day, Indian abstention would only frustrate BRI, it will not derail it. Moreover, down the road, Indian unwillingness to be part of this mega-project will hurt its own long-term economic interests. Therefore, it needs to realise the importance of cooperating with China on the BRI while getting China to do so on various India-led regional projects. It cannot be a zero-sum game.

Next steps
What is also becoming abundantly clear is that the snail-paced ‘Special Representatives’ talks on the India-China boundary question have not yielded much so far, and it is perhaps the appropriate occasion to revamp the dialogue process. The 19 rounds of talks held till last year have hardly anything substantive to show for them in terms of the resolution of the boundary dispute. Indeed, the focus is increasingly shifting from conflict resolution to conflict management. It is high time, therefore, that the two countries appointed dedicated high-ranking officials to discuss the boundary issues in a more sustained and result-oriented manner.

Let’s briefly revisit the Doklam facts for the sake of clarity and future policy direction. The Indian Army was deployed on the soil of another country against a third country without proper treaty mandate or unambiguous official invitation to intervene on behalf of the Bhutanese government. The 2007 India-Bhutan Friendship Treaty states that the two countries “shall cooperate closely with each other on issues relating to their national interests.” And that: “Neither Government shall allow the use of its territory for activities harmful to the national security and interest of the other.” Notwithstanding the special security relationship that India and Bhutan have shared over the past several decades, nothing in the 2007 treaty binds India to send troops to help Bhutan. Nor did Bhutan explicitly request military assistance from India during the stand-off even though the MEA statement of June 30, 2017 refers to ‘coordination between the two countries’ during the stand-off.

The argument here is not that India does not have legitimate security and strategic interests in Bhutan which would be undermined by the Chinese territorial aggression, but that there is a need to engage in careful scenario-building before India decides to take China on militarily.

The Xiamen opportunity
But finally, it all comes down to devising a strategy to engage a resurgent China, also a significant neighbour, in the days ahead. While Doklam may now be a thing of the past, Sino-Indian ties are never likely to be the same again – there will be skirmishes, war of words and attempts to outmanoeuvre each other in the neighbourhood and beyond. While New Delhi needs to constantly look over its shoulders for potential Chinese surprises, there is also an urgent need to adopt a multi-pronged strategy to deal with Beijing, for, after all, statecraft is not as black and white as some would like it to be. India, for one, needs to engage China a lot more at several levels: diplomatically, politically, multilaterally and economically. The upcoming BRICS summit in the Chinese city of Xiamen is a good occasion to initiate a dedicated backchannel with Beijing given the high potential for future disagreements. The two sides also need to conduct bilateral consultations on various issues – ranging from Afghan reconciliation to regional economic development. The more diplomacy the better.

Happymon Jacob teaches Disarmament and National Security at the School of International Studies, JNU, New Delhi
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Evidence of Indian propaganda spreading fake news ... and yet people still believe these rumors. Looks like the BJP is working overtime to save face ...

China gives $20 billion soft loan to India for withdrawal of its troops? This is called fake news!
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) 15:39, August 30, 2017

The Chinese government has not offered any soft loan to India in exchange for the latter’s agreement to ease border tensions, Chinese media reported on Wednesday.

Following China and India’s agreement to back away from their stand-off at Dong Lang (Doklam) on Monday, rumors of the withdrawal have been circulating on the Chinese-language internet. Based on the rumors, an India media outlet named “Press Trust of Hindustan” reported that India agreed to withdraw its personnel and equipment from the face-off site, but only in return for a $20 billion soft loan for infrastructure construction in India.

The rumor has received mix reactions from the Chinese public, with many finding it irritating, while others doubted the authenticity of the news.

In response to the rumor, Liaowang Institute, a think tank of Xinhua News Agency, issued a commentary on Wednesday, noting that the rumors are unreliable.

According to the institute, there is no media outlet named Press Trust of Hindustan in India, making the source of the rumor untrustworthy. The commentary noted that India’s suspicion and reluctance on Sino-Indian cooperation in infrastructure construction make the soft loan rumor even less reliable, as many Indian activists and politicians have been trying to exclude Chinese investment and companies from the country’s electronic and mobile communication sectors.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Evidence of Indian propaganda spreading fake news ... and yet people still believe these rumors. Looks like the BJP is working overtime to save face ...

China gives $20 billion soft loan to India for withdrawal of its troops? This is called fake news!
(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) 15:39, August 30, 2017

The Chinese government has not offered any soft loan to India in exchange for the latter’s agreement to ease border tensions, Chinese media reported on Wednesday.

Following China and India’s agreement to back away from their stand-off at Dong Lang (Doklam) on Monday, rumors of the withdrawal have been circulating on the Chinese-language internet. Based on the rumors, an India media outlet named “Press Trust of Hindustan” reported that India agreed to withdraw its personnel and equipment from the face-off site, but only in return for a $20 billion soft loan for infrastructure construction in India.

The rumor has received mix reactions from the Chinese public, with many finding it irritating, while others doubted the authenticity of the news.

In response to the rumor, Liaowang Institute, a think tank of Xinhua News Agency, issued a commentary on Wednesday, noting that the rumors are unreliable.

According to the institute, there is no media outlet named Press Trust of Hindustan in India, making the source of the rumor untrustworthy. The commentary noted that India’s suspicion and reluctance on Sino-Indian cooperation in infrastructure construction make the soft loan rumor even less reliable, as many Indian activists and politicians have been trying to exclude Chinese investment and companies from the country’s electronic and mobile communication sectors.

Aren't the BJP boycotting Chinese goods? Wouldn't Chinese infrastructure loan qualify to some extent?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The fact they have to lie about this soft loan says they didn't "win" in their own first to blink eyes and they had to make up something to make it look like they won. No need for interpretation. You wouldn't have to make things up if the truth was enough to make their case.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The fact they have to lie about this soft loan says they didn't "win" in their own first to blink eyes and they had to make up something to make it look like they won. No need for interpretation. You wouldn't have to make things up if the truth was enough to make their case.

We all know India did not win. It cannot win. What we can see is that CPC didn't bite into the bait and still managed to redeem the benefits of this event. Those being, India setting up a precedence of being able to justify military incursion into disputed territories on behalf of another nation that never even officially requested it. On top of that, the expansion and improvement of this road or whatever piece of infrastructure will be continued as soon as the dispute is settled with Bhutan in the future. This also offers Bhutan to establish closer ties to China so that the disputed territories can be worked out diplomatically without India's involvement unless Chinese demands are considered unfair by Bhutan, in which case it'll go back to India and request help. If the issue is resolved diplomatically, it's safe to bet that it is agreeable with Bhutan. Not considering corruption of this process though.

China came out of this with a bag of goodies.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
After this episode, I'm having a lot of reservation about the potential of India to develop into a truly advanced, modern and prosperous society. It's behavior is akin to a spoilt child but having a rich and powerful dad behind his back.

I don't see India gaining anything tangible apart from draining any goodwill that the Chinese has of them pre-Doklam crisis. Their geo-political influence over Bhutan took a hit, as well as having their previous delusion of having the backing of so-called western allies when it really mattered, shattered. And roads in Doklam will still get built regardless. And yet they seem so satisfied just because their actions managed to annoyed China.

If this is their only ambition, I don't see how India could ever developed to be an equal to all the "developed" nations of the world. Their value as a true partner of China in the future is thus very much over-stated.

India should be careful to choose its actions wisely in the coming few decades, otherwise its fortunes could be even worse than what its having now. Sad, but true.

The way I see it, India's actions in Doklam have little to do with India developing into a truly advanced, modern and prosperous society.

The key measure is whether they can increase R&D spending, because it has been stuck at 0.8% of GDP for the past decade, which is firmly at developing world levels. (In comparison, China is devoting 2.1% of GDP, which is firmly at developed world levels.)

That is something India needs to sort out internally, but there are so many inherent divisions in India (linguistic, racial, religious, caste, political, etc) which are compounded by an incompetent bureaucratic government.
 
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