Impact of China's carrier race on South Korean Navy?

Finn McCool said:

What about Taiwan? Any prosepects for an indigenous LPD type ship there?

Since Taiwan is probably not going to be sending its forces overseas that is doubtful, but it would be useful for ASW purposes, to provide more air cover for the ROCN and as a reply to the Varyag.

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There are no plans, and I don't think it is even being considered. Taiwan's defence budget is much more modest than the other three East Asian powers - it has to be focused on self-defence, albeit with a number of cruise missiles to retaliate against Chinese military installations. An LPD would divert funds which could be better spent elsewhere, even if Taiwan had the plans, etc to build one.

I agree with you on the part about the Chinese carrier making ones for Japan and South Korea a necessity. I have always maintained that PLAN carriers would spark off its two neighbours to build its own. I'm not sure how much they factored that in to their decision-making, but they'll have to deal with it at the end of the day.

AssassinsMace said:

I don't really think China is concerned about South Korea's military. You don't hear them protest anything militarily the South Koreans do like they do with Taiwan.

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Erm, but that's because Beijing does not have territorial claims to South Korea. China objects to Taiwanese defence spending because it wants to make a forceful unification easier - more purchases and a larger budget in Taiwan frustrates that.

South Korea's military spending is still quite a bit smaller than China's, even if you use the official figures, so it can't be seen as a threat to Chinese security. So it would be quite daft for them to object. Also the ROKN is still relatively small when compared to the PLAN and JMSDF, even if the quality is good - 6 destroyers, 9 frigates and 9 submarines (10 from next year). Compare that to 40 destroyers, 4 DDH and 15 submarines for the JMSDF (more commissioned next year).

Erm, but that's because Beijing does not have territorial claims to South Korea. China objects to Taiwanese defence spending because it wants to make a forceful unification easier - more purchases and a larger budget in Taiwan frustrates that.

South Korea's military spending is still quite a bit smaller than China's, even if you use the official figures, so it can't be seen as a threat to Chinese security. So it would be quite daft for them to object. Also the ROKN is still relatively small when compared to the PLAN and JMSDF, even if the quality is good - 6 destroyers, 9 frigates and 9 submarines (10 from next year). Compare that to 40 destroyers, 4 DDH and 15 submarines for the JMSDF (more commissioned next year).

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There are disputed islands that all China, South Korea, Japan and others claim. So there's no difference between that and Taiwan.

If South Korea is reacting to China's military build-up, i.e. carrier construction, as claimed by this thread and using that as the excuse to buildup their military, then why haven't we heard any sort of the usual response given by the Chinese when Japan, India, and the US have used China as an excuse in the past for boosting their military. This thread said South Korea is making carriers in response to China! My point is South Korea is not building up their military in response to China. You said that South Korea's military spending is not a threat to China's security. So what are you arguing about?

AssassinsMace said:

There are disputed islands that all China, South Korea, Japan and others claim. So there's no difference between that and Taiwan.

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There is a huge difference between claiming an uninhabited island and an entire country of over 20 million people!!!!

If South Korea is reacting to China's military build-up, i.e. carrier construction, as claimed by this thread and using that as the excuse to buildup their military, then why haven't we heard any sort of the usual response given by the Chinese when Japan, India, and the US have used China as an excuse in the past for boosting their military.

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Because the South Koreans' spending is still way lower than China's and is growing more slowly as well. Whereas China's is growing faster than anyone else's in the region, plus there's a lot less transparency of the Chinese defence budget - we know pretty much what South Korea is spending.

This thread said South Korea is making carriers in response to China! My point is South Korea is not building up their military in response to China. You said that South Korea's military spending is not a threat to China's security. So what are you arguing about?

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I said that current South Korean spending could not be seen as a threat by China. And just because SK is not a military threat to China does not mean that South Korea will not respond to China's ever increasing defence budget, desire for aircraft carriers, etc. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

AssassinsMace said:

My point is South Korea is not building up their military in response to China.

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I would put it this way: the ROK just modernizes its military to be respected by all-friends and foes. Remember Sweden's "armed neutrality" in the Cold War years? Alliences shift and national security priorities change. But if you are strong, noone will dare to bully you! If there is a confrontation between PRC & Japan, both Koreas will be on China's side or at least neutral. But if there is a dispute between PRC & ROK, the latter will want to resolve it without any 3rd party interference- be it US or Japan.

Because the South Koreans' spending is still way lower than China's and is growing more slowly as well. Whereas China's is growing faster than anyone else's in the region, plus there's a lot less transparency of the Chinese defence budget - we know pretty much what South Korea is spending.

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I said that current South Korean spending could not be seen as a threat by China. And just because SK is not a military threat to China does not mean that South Korea will not respond to China's ever increasing defence budget, desire for aircraft carriers, etc. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

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Taiwan spends about 8 billion dollars on defense. South Korea spends 20 billion. Your logic doesn't make any sense since you claim South Korea's military spending is not a threat to China thus why China doesn't protest. But it spends more than Taiwan which China does see as a threat? But then you charge that South Korea is blaming China's military and not anyone else for its future plans yet it's too small for China to protest But Taiwan's 8 billion it spends is enough for the Chines to react. You contradict yourself too much.

The PRC has no territorial disputes with S. Korea. It could, however, have some minor territorial issues with an unified Korea in the future. But those disputes are over minor mountain landmass and not islands with large EEZ claims. Also, the Korean birth rate is declining at rapid rate, so its not like they'd have a growing population to push beyond its borders.

If disputes was only over the "landmass", I doubt China and Japan would even bother with Daoyutai. But its strategtic location and EEZ claims make it attractive. The Japanese are very sensitive to this, because if the PLAN had unstricted growth into the Pacific, it'd threaten Japan from both directions (East-West). The USN at least have the vast Pacific as its buffer zone, not to mentiont depth of the US Mainland. Japan has none of those.

BLUEJACKET said:

I would put it this way: the ROK just modernizes its military to be respected by all-friends and foes. Remember Sweden's "armed neutrality" in the Cold War years? Alliences shift and national security priorities change. But if you are strong, noone will dare to bully you! If there is a confrontation between PRC & Japan, both Koreas will be on China's side or at least neutral. But if there is a dispute between PRC & ROK, the latter will want to resolve it without any 3rd party interference- be it US or Japan.

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Of course, I'm sure South Korea would happily sit idly by if Japan and China went at it. And China doesn't feel threatened by South Korea's military because they don't see any conflict with the South Koreans in the forseeable future. And in turn the South Koreans don't see any possilble conflict which is why China doesn't protest South Korea's military plans.

Where did South Korea stand on the Yakasuni Shrine issue? The Japanese and even Americans thought it was a non-issue. If so, then like-minded ally South Korea should've back Japan against big bad trouble-making China making a mountain out of a mole-hill. How come they didn't? Because South Korea, China and many other countries still believe Imperial Japan is still hiding in there. I'm sure many of those countries would rather see China taking on Japan than themselves. It was the extremists that put Abe in power in Japan and they've been talking about getting back territory from Russia because of how they been dragging their feet on discussions on the subject.

AssassinsMace said:

You contradict yourself too much.

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No, Mace, the problem is that you are incapable of understanding a very simple concept.

China claims the whole of Taiwan as its own. But more importantly it wants it so much that it would go to war over it. Now if China had to take control of Taiwan through force, a larger Taiwanese defence budget and purchase of weapons from the US would obviously make it harder. So China will object to absolutely all weapons sales to Taipei - it wants it militarily isolated.

China does not have any claims to South Korea, nor any major disputes. It also recognises South Korea as a country. So why on earth is it going to object to South Korean spending, when it is lower than China's? And do not go back on a loop and ask why it complains about Taiwan's spending - I've already explained it's because China doesn't want Taiwan to be able to defend itself against a Chinese attack. Does China want to draw South Korea into the PRC? No, so it doesn't care nearly as much about its spending.

Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you - I've made a point anyone can understand.

FuManChu said:

No, Mace, the problem is that you are incapable of understanding a very simple concept.

China claims the whole of Taiwan as its own. But more importantly it wants it so much that it would go to war over it. Now if China had to take control of Taiwan through force, a larger Taiwanese defence budget and purchase of weapons from the US would obviously make it harder. So China will object to absolutely all weapons sales to Taipei - it wants it militarily isolated.

China does not have any claims to South Korea, nor any major disputes. It also recognises South Korea as a country. So why on earth is it going to object to South Korean spending, when it is lower than China's? And do not go back on a loop and ask why it complains about Taiwan's spending - I've already explained it's because China doesn't want Taiwan to be able to defend itself against a Chinese attack. Does China want to draw South Korea into the PRC? No, so it doesn't care nearly as much about its spending.

Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you - I've made a point anyone can understand.

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And how you easily you forget that the US, Japan, and virtually everyone on the planet recognizes Taiwan as a part of China. It's not another nation.

Go back on a loop when I've only mentioned it once? You just can't handle someone catching you on your contradictions and fumbles. Does China want to draw India into China? South Korea spends more than India. How about Japan? So why does China respond to them when they use China an excuse for their military buildup just like this thread suggests South Korea does? Read the title of this thread and quit trying redefine everything in your favor.

Avoid answering the questions? You avoid everything else. You might as well avoid me from now on since you keep stalking trying to prove something then fail miserably. Yeah, I'd like to see a strong China. You want to see the opposite. Hide behind the US. Hide behind the West. Hide behind democracry and freedom and yet you're the one that's the self-anointed thought police in here? How ironic. At least I can stand on my own unlike you who has hide behind things you're a contradiction to.

AssassinsMace said:

And how you easily you forget that the US, Japan, and virtually everyone on the planet recognizes Taiwan as a part of China. It's not another nation.

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I don't see how that is relevant to the fact Beijing objects to Taiwanese spending because it wants to make a military take-over easier. That was the only point I had to make in relation to the comparison you made over South Korea and Taiwan. For some reason you're horribly upset by me stating what is blatantly obvious to anyone interested in military affairs.