Ideal PLAN submarine

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I haven't had time to draw much but my lines of thought are:

* Small/medium SSN - similar crewed volume to Rubis but physically bigger due to armament layout (see below)
* Single waterjet main screw with "X" fin layout
* Cavitation generators on forward surfaces (!!!) and auxiliary pop-out stabilizers and rocket (!!!!) boosters for high speed use (thinking 80kts+ for 3-5 minutes as emergency escape or final attack boost. Basically a massive Shkvall
* 12+ VLS big enough for swim-out launch of LACMs so maybe 30" diameter. Mounted outside pressure hull (like Oscar class)
* Two comparatively small diameter pressure hulls mounted one above the other allowing a very low mast which would be partially radar stealthy (as per latest German/SKorean SSKs).
* Towed array and usual sensors
* Non-re-loadable forward torpedo tubes (as in no on board reloads - saves having torpedo room)

And a very cool name, like "Sun Tzu" class.
 

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
suntzusubps4.jpg


Basic arrangement (idea 1):
Length: 80m
Overall height: 14.25m
Main pressure vessel diameter: 6m
Armament: 12 x swim-out tubes (8m x 0.70m)

Cavitation generators mounted in pop-outpositions on nose and forward flanks. 4 x 1m diameter rockets mounted rear in pairs above/below rear section.

Towed array housed in rear of ducted fan (yellow object)
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Can you explain this a little more?

I know nothing about AIP, but I do know that the friction (and thus the power) should vary (roughly) with the wetted area (the entire surface in the case of a sub), while displacement is a measure of volume. So a larger sub (assuming it grows in three dimensions rather than just getting longer) should have a more favourable weight to drag ratio than a small sub.

Put another way, if you double the displacement, the drag less than doubles, so you would need less than twice the power.

You still have to push all that weight. So far, current AIP measures have a relatively low power to weight ratio, and one of the reasons for this is that while generation the power is in fact possible, it would use up all the fuel and oxidizers so fast as well.

The largest current AIP submarine on plan is the lengthened Scorpene with MESMA, with a surface displacement of around 2000mt. As a note, all AIP subs are currently single hulled. and no one is double hulled because of the much greater displacement you have to push a double hulled sub. The Kilo for one example, is already approaching 4000mt when sunk. The Amurs and Ladas all look like single hulled subs to me.

Of course, as Norfolk pointed out, with 300kw fuel cells (the Type 212's cells are 120kw), you are now pushing it to 2500mt, the S-80 Spanish sub is actually a Scorpene variant. So the technology has room for improvement. In addition this sub is also using MESMA. Both approaches, MESMA and fuel cell seem to offer the most when it comes to power to density efficiency.

For this reason I am likely not to think that the Songs and the Yuans do not have AIP technology unless China's AIP technologies are so advanced they surpass state of the art European efforts when it comes to power density. The Song is a fairly large diesel sub for example, probably approaches 2,200 to 2,300mt, in the range of a Kilo for surface displacement. The Yuan is probably heavier still, and the submerged displacement can match a Kilo's 4000mt. China's AIP experimentations are likely concentrated on the Ming class, where the displacement is lower than 2000mt, but the size of these subs are even longer than a Kilo or Yuan, allowing for much space.

Planeman, you have an interesting design, but what is it you like about an X tail?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Also Planeman what's the point of having two pressurized hulls?

***

Let me continue some of my thoughts on this matter. Evaluation of the Songs and the Yuans against the "ideal". How far are the Songs and the Yuans from the "ideal' PLAN conventional?

I dont' really know much about the design history of the Song class, so far it has not been revealed though one day, it will be so for the sake of posterity like other Chinese projects. I believe the roots of it though, lie sometime before the events of Tianamen Square, where China had a rosy military relationship with the West. There has been great French, German and British inspiration that migrated to a military that had been educated and grown up living on Soviet concepts. The design of the Song looked towards Europe, and with its single hull and squared bow, probably to the German Type 209s, British Upholders, and French Agostas rather than the Mings. This is the time period where the French had its greatest and still lingering impact on modern Chinese naval thought, ranging from the importation and copy of the Exocet that would lead to the YJ series of antiship missiles, to the various sonars (DUBV-23 bow sonars, DUBV-43 TAS, DUUX-5 flank sonars among them) that were imported, the Croatales that would become the HQ-7s, to the TAVITAC centers that would lay the basis for future combat centers in PLAN ships. Other influences range from naval radars, the turbine electric drive reported alleged to the 093, to the Lafayette like concepts that would lead to the 054.

However, the Song, which first came out 1995, was beset by unsatisfactory results. The next iteration came out in 2000, followed by one sub each year until 2004. This second period, where 3 subs are only built, suggest problems still existed and are being incrementally corrected with each later sub. Then sometime in 2004, when the third version of the Song came out, the PLAN finally hit the home run, opening the flood gates for mass production and this became the definitive Song version.

In that sense, the Song actually parallels another project, the JH-7. Initially the concept was good, but development problems and delays meant that the final product, when perfected, has become a bit dated and obsolete. I don't think the Song has the hydrodynamic refinements like you see in the Type 212/214 or the latest Scorpenes.

Conceptually obsolete or not, once done however, it appears to be a credible performer. Many conventional are what one would call coastal submarines, with surface displacements under 2000mt and are mainly meant to defend the coast and littoral waters. The Song sits in the spot between 2000 to 2500mt, indicating it has intentions to go farther out into the ocean, a true brown water submarine with some ocean going capability. For sensors, the sub appears to have low frequency flank sonars, which are are a luxury even in many conventionals around the world. Passive low frequency sonars have a greater detection range than MF or HF sonars, and this makes it vital for submarine vs. submarine combat. For passive LF sonar to be effective, the sub has to be quiet enough. Sound reduction measures, now considered standard around the world, include rubber tiling and a single shaft slow turning high torque 7 bladed asymmetrical skewed propeller.

The Song has a large sail for a submarine of its size, and you don't need a sail larger than what you need. Sails add drag and noise. Though, the Song may have a large sail because it needs it. There appears to be a number of sensors attached to the sail, including a turning navigation radar array. The sail also packs a surprise of its own, holes for which a QW series SAM can shoot through.

Videos from CCTV showed the Song having a modern digital combat center. This indicates that the sub has an ample power supply to run such equipment, along with a plethora of sonar and sail sensors. The armaments appear quite decent, including a heavyweight torpedo and underwater launched AshMs. Rather than the ability merely spec'ed as many subs do, the Songs have actually and physically tested underwater YJ-8x launches, which means the ability is not something in paper, but completely operational.

Compared to the double hull of the Kilo, the single hulled Song appears somewhat behind in that feature, but then, the majority of Western submarines are single hulled and for the most part, seemed well adequate with them. However, these submarines have a good excuse for using single hulls that is not applicable to China's situation---making double hulls is more labor cost expensive due to the welding required. China may have aped a design feature from a Western sub without considering its own unique advantage---that it has in the beginning, the manpower and labor cost structure to do double hulls. As a matter of fact, China's first indigenously designed submarine, the Han, is a double hull. Another odd feature are the sensor stalks on top of the bow, which is also featured in a number of Chinese designed subs including the Yuan and the 093. It is apparently aped from similar stalks in USN subs. Although the USN subs have such stalks, the user alone does not guarantee that this is an optimal design feature, and other Russian and Western designs have gone on to eliminate such stalks, which add only to drag and noise.

Nonetheless, the Song's single hull design probably makes it faster, cheaper and easier to construct, especially using modular sections. From mid 2004 and on, the Songs were made like hotcakes. Even today, when its said that the Yuan may have replaced the Song in the production lines, this issue may be arguable. The Song works, its cheap and fast to make, and the pattern of Chinese military development reveals that China does not give a short production span on a truly cost effective and successful design.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Now lets head on the Yuan...

When the Yuan first came out and the pictures validated, the one thing that surprises people is the combination of a Kilo style double hull, with a sail mounting dive planes. The Kilo is well known for using retractable bow planes, a feature which people would think that future Chinese conventionals should emulate. Nothing can be more wrong. The use of diving planes on the sail actually removes the potential backwash of the planes that can affect passive LF sonar. The farther the planes are from the flank sonars, the better. Larger nuclear subs have the luxury of spacing because of their dimensions, but smaller diesel subs require much more thought. Most of the latest submarine designs with the notable exception of the Type 214, has gone to mounting diving planes on the sail, including the German Type 212, Japanese Oyashio class, the Russian Amur, Lada and Piranha class, and the French Scorpene.

Much of what can be said of the Song can be applied to the Yuan, including its attention to sonars. The Song and the Yuan appear to be sister classes that can be maintained through the same logistics structure, having the same engines, fuel, sensors and so on. This is why many view the Yuan as an evolution and perfection of the Song.

The main difference is the double hull construction. While it has its advantages, like reserve buoyancy and protection, double hulls are also more expensive and slower to make. That's going to crimp down on the number of Yuans that can be built in a year, but nonetheless, the advantage of double hulls is undeniable, and the reason why the USN is now going to that expense in its latest subs.
 

xuansu

New Member
Another potential AIP method is direct conversion of heat into electricity. It's kind of strange that we haven't seen many development in this area. The old Soviet nuclear satellites use this kind of technology.

Since there are many ways to generate heat without using air, it seems this should be the most logical direction one would follow for AIP instead of going through some kind of mechanical method to generate electricity.

Not only that, if these heat conversion devices are sensitive enough, you could put them around all your internal heat producing components, such as lights, stoves and motors, and recover part of the wasted energy.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Heat is actually wasteful. What we want to do is to obtain electrical energy from chemical reactions without a thermal stage. That would provide the highest efficiencies yet.

I think fuel cell technology is the most promising. We are probably just scratching the surface yet. I think one day, it may be possible to create a conventional sub without a diesel engine, running on fuel cells and an electric motor completely. That would also probably make it the quietest sub in the world matched with a nuclear sub kind of endurance.
 

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I think I've found the ideal rocket motor for my super-cavitating sub. 4 of these.

Are my estimates as good as right? And any idea of thrust, or duration of burn?
rocketzr4.jpg
 

AmiGanguli

Junior Member
You still have to push all that weight.

Since the sub is neutrally buoyant the weight should only matter when accelerating. Once moving the only force to take into account is drag.

So far, current AIP measures have a relatively low power to weight ratio, and one of the reasons for this is that while generation the power is in fact possible, it would use up all the fuel and oxidizers so fast as well.

That's sort of what I'm getting at though. You can increase the number (or size) of the engine and store more fuel relative to drag if you have a larger sub.

If this intuition doesn't make sense to you, think of long range bombers. Weight affects them more seriously (since they're not neutrally buoyant), but even so you wouldn't expect a model airplane to ever travel a thousand kilometers, but a scaled up version - the same shape, but larger in three dimensions, can do so easily.

I haven't read the pages Norfolk linked to. I'll do that on my train trip this morning and see if they provide an explanation that makes sense to me.

... Ami.
 
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