Ideal PLA main battle tank (?)

Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
China has adopted lots of Russian military technology, so I thought this article on Russian tanks was informative about Chinese and Russian tank defensive systems. The article basically says that Russian tanks' defenses are very good, if not better than America's and Europe's. However, Russia exports downgraded tanks. It basically affirms what we already know (or at least what I already know).

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Jane's International Defence Review 7/2007, pg. 15:

"IMPENETRABLE RUSSIAN TANK ARMOUR STANDS UP TO EXAMINATION

By Richard M. Ogorkiewicz

Claims by NATO testers in the 1990s that the armour of Soviet Cold War tanks was “effectively impenetrable” have been supported by comments made following similar tests in the US.

Speaking at a conference on “The Future of Armoured Warfare” in London on the 30th May, IDR's Pentagon correspondent Leland Ness explained that US Army tests involving firing trials on 25 T-72A1 and 12 T-72B1 tanks (each fitted with Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour [ERA]) had confirmed NATO tests done on other former Soviet tanks left behind in Germany after the end of the Cold War. The tests showed that the ERA and composite Armour of the T-72s was incredibly resilient to 1980s NATO anti-tank weapons.

In contrast to the original, or 'light', type of ERA which is effective only against shaped charge jets, the 'heavy' Kontakt-5 ERA is also effective against the long-rod penetrators of APFSDS tank gun projectiles, anti-tank missiles, and anti-armour rotary cannons. Explosive reactive armour was valued by the Soviet Union and its now-independent component states since the 1970s, and almost every tank in the eastern-European military inventory today has either been manufactured to use ERA or had ERA tiles added to it, including even the T-55 and T-62 tanks built forty to fifty years ago, but still used today by reserve units.

"During the tests we used only the weapons which existed with NATO armies during the last decade of the Cold War to determine how effective such weapons would have been against these examples of modern Soviet tank design. Our results were completely unexpected. When fitted to the T-72A1 and B1 the 'heavy' ERA made them immune to the DU (Depleted Uranium) penetrators of the M829A2 APFSDS (used by the 120 mm guns of the Cold War era US M1 Abrams tanks), which are among the most formidable of current tank gun projectiles. We also tested the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger (the gun of the A-10 Thunderbolt II Strike Plane), the 30mm M320 (the gun of the AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopter) and a range of standard NATO Anti Tank Guided Missiles – all with the same result of no penetration or effective destruction of the test vehicles. The combined protection of the standard armour and the ERA gives the Tanks a level of protection equal to our own. The myth of Soviet inferiority in this sector of arms production that has been perpetuated by the failure of downgraded T-72 export tanks in the Gulf Wars has, finally, been laid to rest. The results of these tests show that if a NATO/Warsaw Pact confrontation had erupted in Europe, the Soviets would have had parity (or perhaps even superiority) in armour” – U.S. Army Spokesperson at the show.

Newer KE penetrators have been designed since the Cold War to defeat the Kontakt-5 (although Kontakt-5 has been improved as well). As a response the Russian Army has produced a new type of ERA, “Relikt”, which is claimed to be two to three times as effective as Kontakt-5 and completely impenetrable against modern Western warheads.

Despite the collapse of the USSR, the Russian Tank industry has managed to maintain itself and its expertise in armour production, resulting in modern designs (such as the T-90, the T-95 and mysterious Black Eagle) to replace the, surprisingly, still effective Soviet era tanks. These tests will do much to discount the argument of the “Lion of Babylon” (the ineffective Iraqi version of the T-72M) and export quality tanks being compared to the more sophisticated and upgraded versions which existed in the Soviet military’s best Tank formations and continue to be developed in a resurgent Russian military industrial complex."
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Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Well, I have to say Infra Man, you've provided us with a very shiny nugget here. I guess a lot of those 1980's Pentagon claims (that were roundly derided by a lot of people) that the Soviets had tanks that were as good or better than our own were on the money after all. Sobering.
 

Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
One thing I want to know is how Israel's Merkava or "God's Chariot" were destroyed by supposedly backward anti-tank missiles fired by Muslim guerrillas (allegedly Russian RPG-29). Israel has access to almost the best of US military technology for free or at heavily discounted prices, and Israel has been using US technology to develop the Merkava. Israel even bragged that the Merkava was possibly the best tank in the world, however, they were significantly damaged, crippled, or destroyed by Muslims firing allegedly outdated Russian and Chinese anti-tank missiles.

Here is a YouTube.com video on the exaggerated capabilities of Israel's Merkava:
"Merkava God's Chariot Part 1 of 5"
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The rest of the 5 videos and many other related videos can be easily found using YouTube.com's search function.

Does anyone know any more about this? Was this incident completely misunderstood? Did the Muslims exaggerate their successes? Did Israel get too arrogant for their own good? Are Russian/Chinese supplied anti-tank technology better than what the US claims? This information MAY reveal how capable Russian and Chinese tank and anti-tank technology is.
 
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Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Try here (Pages 22-23):

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This gives more of an overall picture of the 2006 War.

And here(Pages 18-19)(just click on the Zoom button to read it):

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This piece talks about how the Iranians and Hezbollah engaged in extensive technical intelligence gathering in order to use their different ATGMs against the different models of Israeli tanks. As this piece say though, only 10% of the Israeli tanks were hit, and only half of those were actually penetrated. And only two Merkavas were total write-offs - both hit by IEDs, not ATGMs.

While this is a substantial amount of oversimplification putting it this way, ATGMs in Lebanon 2006 were actually rather less effective against than they were in the Sinai 1973. That said, one of the main reasons that ATGMs scored the level of success that they did was the poor training and tactics of the Israeli infantry in 2006, and the almost total lack of Israeli infantry to accompany the tanks in 1973.

It's not clear that any of this gives any useful indications about PLA capabilites - some, but not a lot that isn't perhaps already known, or guessed at already.
 
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Infra_Man99

Banned Idiot
Great articles Norfolk, thanks.

Based on what I already know and your articles, I would say Israel had the full support of US technology and financial aid, but Israel still performed unexpectedly poorly against much poorer Muslim guerrilla during the 2006 war due to these basic reasons:

1. Israeli infantry and armored divisions train A LOT, but their training is incorrect for Israel's military needs.

2. Israel was overconfident of its capabilities, and underestimated Muslim guerrillas.

3. Israeli intelligence is poor, and gave incorrect enemy data to its military, so Israeli infantry and armored divisions created incorrect training methods, and made Israel overestimate its capabilities and underestimate Muslim guerrillas.

Israel probably made the same mistakes when its corvette that was possibly armed with America's best technology was still hit by an "outdated" Chinese or Iranian missile.

In summary, no matter how good your technology and financial base may be, you need to TAILOR and TEST out your military technology and military techniques to defeat your enemy, and you learn about your enemy with good, sober intelligence. Otherwise, you are playing Russian roulette: Maybe your fancy military technology and training will do well in actual combat or maybe your fancy military technology and training will face defeat, let chance decide.

China better make sure it has good information on its potential enemies, and develop the correct technology and techniques to overcome its potential enemies.
 

dh19440113

New Member
reasons:

1. Israeli infantry and armored divisions train A LOT, but their training is incorrect for Israel's military needs.

2. Israel was overconfident of its capabilities, and underestimated Muslim guerrillas.

3. Israeli intelligence is poor, and gave incorrect enemy data to its military, so Israeli infantry and armored divisions created incorrect training methods, and made Israel overestimate its capabilities and underestimate Muslim guerrillas.

Israel probably made the same mistakes when its corvette that was possibly armed with America's best technology was still hit by an "outdated" Chinese or Iranian missile.

In summary, no matter how good your technology and financial base may be, you need to TAILOR and TEST out your military technology and military techniques to defeat your enemy, and you learn about your enemy with good, sober intelligence. Otherwise, you are playing Russian roulette: Maybe your fancy military technology and training will do well in actual combat or maybe your fancy military technology and training will face defeat, let chance decide.

These lesson's are evident in a neighboring country called Iraq as well. So much for superpower supremacy.

When the iron curtain came down, A IR missile fielded by east german airforce called R-73 Archer produce a simular surprise to the west, the missile has thrust vectoring, HMS guidence, and focal plane arrays. The equivalent Aim-9l has neither and thought they were decades ahead of the soviet in IR missile design LOL.

In the category of IFV's Boyevaya Mashina Pekhoty (BMP) with its amphibious capability was superior to M114 AFV/ACAV during cold war era.
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
according to Chinese magazine"tanks and armour vehicle" during the second chenchn war, single T-72 tank fitted with ERA survive hit by 6 AT-5 ATGM and single RPG-7 round .
by contrast, during israel-hezbollah war, israel being rushed to war,without ERA nor Trophy active armour defense.
acording to israeli tanker bitterly claim that money for trophy AAD being diverted to other dept.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
* R-73 doesn't have a focal plane array.

* Just like the name implies - guerillas managed to destroy a few merkavas because they were doing guerilla warfare. Hiding, waiting for a good oportunity, waiting till tank passes them by, hitting the tank from behind, etc. Urban battlefield filled with civilians was also a good conduit for such warfare, as Israelis couldn't just level the place before going in with tanks. Conculusion is - any tank in the world would have suffered the same consequences.

* A thing to note about Kontant and Relikt armor is that they have limited number boxes around the tank. Basically, when a projectile hits one box, it is spent and offers no protection against another projectile. In practice, it means that while it can protect against a few direct hits (providing no two hit the roughly same spot), a salvo from several tanks is more likely to get at least one projectile through and penetrate. That being said, those ERAs are still awesome technology and are more than worth their price/weight etc. While the issue i mentioned here may lower their actual usefulness against 30mm cannons and such, enemy tank rounds have a much lower fire rate. So while the enemy gets to shoot that salvo of rounds, Relikt equipped tank will also have time to complicate enemy's situation.
 

eckherl

New Member
China has adopted lots of Russian military technology, so I thought this article on Russian tanks was informative about Chinese and Russian tank defensive systems. The article basically says that Russian tanks' defenses are very good, if not better than America's and Europe's. However, Russia exports downgraded tanks. It basically affirms what we already know (or at least what I already know).

------------------------
Jane's International Defence Review 7/2007, pg. 15:

"IMPENETRABLE RUSSIAN TANK ARMOUR STANDS UP TO EXAMINATION

By Richard M. Ogorkiewicz

Claims by NATO testers in the 1990s that the armour of Soviet Cold War tanks was “effectively impenetrable” have been supported by comments made following similar tests in the US.

Speaking at a conference on “The Future of Armoured Warfare” in London on the 30th May, IDR's Pentagon correspondent Leland Ness explained that US Army tests involving firing trials on 25 T-72A1 and 12 T-72B1 tanks (each fitted with Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour [ERA]) had confirmed NATO tests done on other former Soviet tanks left behind in Germany after the end of the Cold War. The tests showed that the ERA and composite Armour of the T-72s was incredibly resilient to 1980s NATO anti-tank weapons.

In contrast to the original, or 'light', type of ERA which is effective only against shaped charge jets, the 'heavy' Kontakt-5 ERA is also effective against the long-rod penetrators of APFSDS tank gun projectiles, anti-tank missiles, and anti-armour rotary cannons. Explosive reactive armour was valued by the Soviet Union and its now-independent component states since the 1970s, and almost every tank in the eastern-European military inventory today has either been manufactured to use ERA or had ERA tiles added to it, including even the T-55 and T-62 tanks built forty to fifty years ago, but still used today by reserve units.

"During the tests we used only the weapons which existed with NATO armies during the last decade of the Cold War to determine how effective such weapons would have been against these examples of modern Soviet tank design. Our results were completely unexpected. When fitted to the T-72A1 and B1 the 'heavy' ERA made them immune to the DU (Depleted Uranium) penetrators of the M829A2 APFSDS (used by the 120 mm guns of the Cold War era US M1 Abrams tanks), which are among the most formidable of current tank gun projectiles. We also tested the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger (the gun of the A-10 Thunderbolt II Strike Plane), the 30mm M320 (the gun of the AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopter) and a range of standard NATO Anti Tank Guided Missiles – all with the same result of no penetration or effective destruction of the test vehicles. The combined protection of the standard armour and the ERA gives the Tanks a level of protection equal to our own. The myth of Soviet inferiority in this sector of arms production that has been perpetuated by the failure of downgraded T-72 export tanks in the Gulf Wars has, finally, been laid to rest. The results of these tests show that if a NATO/Warsaw Pact confrontation had erupted in Europe, the Soviets would have had parity (or perhaps even superiority) in armour” – U.S. Army Spokesperson at the show.

Newer KE penetrators have been designed since the Cold War to defeat the Kontakt-5 (although Kontakt-5 has been improved as well). As a response the Russian Army has produced a new type of ERA, “Relikt”, which is claimed to be two to three times as effective as Kontakt-5 and completely impenetrable against modern Western warheads.

Despite the collapse of the USSR, the Russian Tank industry has managed to maintain itself and its expertise in armour production, resulting in modern designs (such as the T-90, the T-95 and mysterious Black Eagle) to replace the, surprisingly, still effective Soviet era tanks. These tests will do much to discount the argument of the “Lion of Babylon” (the ineffective Iraqi version of the T-72M) and export quality tanks being compared to the more sophisticated and upgraded versions which existed in the Soviet military’s best Tank formations and continue to be developed in a resurgent Russian military industrial complex."
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I know that I stated I would never post here on this forum again but I have a something that you need to think about. Russians left tanks in Europe with K-5 level armor protection? M829A2 was stated not to be able to penetrate K-5 armored vehicles when in fact this tank round was designed specifically to defeat it.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Are you thinking of the M929A3 round instead?

The reactive armor on the ZTZ-96 and ZTZ-99 don't seem to generally cover the turret. Is the PLA that confident about the frontal turret protection of their tanks?
 
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