Ideal Cruiser thread
- Thread starter planeman
- Start date
Random thought:
* I'd expect any 'good' cruiser to have at least two helicopters
* An area-air defence system such as S-400 or Aster-60 (latter not for China)
* At least 8 anti-ship missiles. Yakhont are best but yj-62 or even yj-83 are poss
* At least 8 land attack cruise missiles
* Either a big (eg 157mm) shore bombardment gun or else navalised MRLS
* Some form of anti-sub weapons plus bow/hull sonar and towed array
* I'd expect any 'good' cruiser to have at least two helicopters
* An area-air defence system such as S-400 or Aster-60 (latter not for China)
* At least 8 anti-ship missiles. Yakhont are best but yj-62 or even yj-83 are poss
* At least 8 land attack cruise missiles
* Either a big (eg 157mm) shore bombardment gun or else navalised MRLS
* Some form of anti-sub weapons plus bow/hull sonar and towed array
Well my speciallity is to try and design ships that as realistic as possiple. So my suggestion will not look fancy as some others might be, but who says all the suggestions needs to be the same?
So once again did the designs have to be as modern as possiple, or can they be "what ifs" of the past? (beocuse I have few nice ideas for imaginary coldwar cruisers)
When is the deathline for the contest?
So once again did the designs have to be as modern as possiple, or can they be "what ifs" of the past? (beocuse I have few nice ideas for imaginary coldwar cruisers)
When is the deathline for the contest?
Re: Replacing the Jianghus and sub-chasers?
- edit: lol didn't see that new cruiser thread, some mod please move my post in there.
I also didn't stick to chinese systems here in the first place, but thought more of "all the world systems are allowed"
I keep editting my post matching chinese systems edit-end -
Since it's big and heavy, a conventional mono-hull design. Two or four screws powered by diesels and additional gas-turbines that can be combined for high speed runs.
CIWS: four Type 730, if possible 2 Tor M1 systems instead of two 730. Of each one bow, one aft.
That makes the compulsive gun for air-defence obsolete IMO. Therefore you can leave it either away or use it only for surface engagements. It's a cheap alternative, I like to mention (MOdular Naval ARtillery Concept) here. It's a standart 155mm howitzer turret with fast loading magazine and up to 21,1nm range. 54nm are envisioned with "rocketed projectiles'. But I think this is something for frigates and destroyers.
2 30x cells with S-300F and one multiple 9M317 launcher
An AEGIS like combat system cotrolling all defenses systems and with the ability to slave the missiles of other vessels to it.
Two ASW-Helos, perhaps one that can be refitted for AEW and extended surface search. Of coursre a (static) hanger to accomodate that. 2 6cell CY-1 launchers.
2 8xlauch cells for (ASh)CMs, Sunburn/Yakont e.g.
Active bow sonar, a towed active sonar would be nice.
That's what I can think of at the moment.
I'll think about it.
- edit: lol didn't see that new cruiser thread, some mod please move my post in there.
I also didn't stick to chinese systems here in the first place, but thought more of "all the world systems are allowed"
I keep editting my post matching chinese systems edit-end -Since it's big and heavy, a conventional mono-hull design. Two or four screws powered by diesels and additional gas-turbines that can be combined for high speed runs.
CIWS: four Type 730, if possible 2 Tor M1 systems instead of two 730. Of each one bow, one aft.
That makes the compulsive gun for air-defence obsolete IMO. Therefore you can leave it either away or use it only for surface engagements. It's a cheap alternative, I like to mention (MOdular Naval ARtillery Concept) here. It's a standart 155mm howitzer turret with fast loading magazine and up to 21,1nm range. 54nm are envisioned with "rocketed projectiles'. But I think this is something for frigates and destroyers.
2 30x cells with S-300F and one multiple 9M317 launcher
An AEGIS like combat system cotrolling all defenses systems and with the ability to slave the missiles of other vessels to it.
Two ASW-Helos, perhaps one that can be refitted for AEW and extended surface search. Of coursre a (static) hanger to accomodate that. 2 6cell CY-1 launchers.
2 8xlauch cells for (ASh)CMs, Sunburn/Yakont e.g.
Active bow sonar, a towed active sonar would be nice.
That's what I can think of at the moment.
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I'm not sure if China will ever get anything like Cruisers.
But if it does, then I'd expect it to carry 2 helicopters. One for AEW and one for ASW.
And then, 12 8-cell VLS. That is common and can carry HQ-9 (no point in putting S-400 when it's not in service on any ships), HQ-16, HQ-7. suppose one cell can fit 1 HQ-9 or 4 HQ-16/7. Then I would choose a configuration with 56 HQ-9, 80 HQ-16 and 80 HQ-7.
4 Type 730 CIWS.
A 16-cell VLS for LACM and Anti-ship missiles. So, depending on the mission, 8 LACM (DH-10?, KD-63?), 8 YJ-1X (or whatever is the latest Chinese AShM).
2 AK-130
Sensors: just go with more advanced versions of what's on 052C right now + towed array sonar.
.....
But if it does, then I'd expect it to carry 2 helicopters. One for AEW and one for ASW.
And then, 12 8-cell VLS. That is common and can carry HQ-9 (no point in putting S-400 when it's not in service on any ships), HQ-16, HQ-7. suppose one cell can fit 1 HQ-9 or 4 HQ-16/7. Then I would choose a configuration with 56 HQ-9, 80 HQ-16 and 80 HQ-7.
4 Type 730 CIWS.
A 16-cell VLS for LACM and Anti-ship missiles. So, depending on the mission, 8 LACM (DH-10?, KD-63?), 8 YJ-1X (or whatever is the latest Chinese AShM).
2 AK-130
Sensors: just go with more advanced versions of what's on 052C right now + towed array sonar.
.....
Ok Here's my fisrt suggestion, 060A
It's pretty much based on the idea "what if china wwould have been major naval player all along?" I've been plannig this sort of fleet for long time now and I've just started to draw these ships. So here's first little history of the ships
Project 060A is the first and sole cruiser size shipclass build in china after the 1950. Only two ships were ever build, 123 and 124. 123 was laid down in 1977 and completed in 1982 and 124 in 1980 and 1985 respectedly.
The purpose of this class was to replace the old postwar missilecruiser conversions in the carrier escort role and were pretty much build around the HQ-3 SAM system with dual head launchers and total of 60 missiles (30 per launcher) Orginal design called for nuclear propulsion but after long armwrestling, only conventionally powered ships were funded and these ships featured pressurized steam plants.
The desing wasen't altogether succesfull. Lots of critique came from the absent of medium calibre guns and complexity of the systems. It was decided (presumably by the politicans) that these ships were too big and the planned four additional units were replaced with the much more compact 052K (A Luhu class destroyers with HQ-3 launchers replacing the aft helicopter hangar and the front gun, I will post a pic when I've draw it...)
Both of these ships served as a flagships of the carrier battlegroups. In late 1990's the fate of these ships become in hands and it was decided that only one of them was modernized (124) due the limited funds. 124 was rebuild with new VLS launchers replacing the HQ-3s and new passive plannat array radar system was fitted (It served as a trial and test ship for the weaponsystems fielded to the 052C). 123 was laid up for reserve and was scrapped in 2004.
Important data:
Lenght: 178 m
Beam: 18,5 m
Draught: 8m
Dispalcement: 9000 tons full load
Machinery: steamplants, 80000 shp
Crew: 480
Aviation: aft helicopterdeck and hangar for 2 helicopters
Armament: 2 dual HQ-3B SAM launchers (30 missiles each end), 2 6-cell LY-60SAM launchers (18 missiles each), 8 Yj-81/CY-1 SSMs, 4x2 37mm CIWS. 2x4 533mm TT.
Here's pic of the standart configuration, I will post the modernized ship later on:
It's pretty much based on the idea "what if china wwould have been major naval player all along?" I've been plannig this sort of fleet for long time now and I've just started to draw these ships. So here's first little history of the ships
Project 060A is the first and sole cruiser size shipclass build in china after the 1950. Only two ships were ever build, 123 and 124. 123 was laid down in 1977 and completed in 1982 and 124 in 1980 and 1985 respectedly.
The purpose of this class was to replace the old postwar missilecruiser conversions in the carrier escort role and were pretty much build around the HQ-3 SAM system with dual head launchers and total of 60 missiles (30 per launcher) Orginal design called for nuclear propulsion but after long armwrestling, only conventionally powered ships were funded and these ships featured pressurized steam plants.
The desing wasen't altogether succesfull. Lots of critique came from the absent of medium calibre guns and complexity of the systems. It was decided (presumably by the politicans) that these ships were too big and the planned four additional units were replaced with the much more compact 052K (A Luhu class destroyers with HQ-3 launchers replacing the aft helicopter hangar and the front gun, I will post a pic when I've draw it...)
Both of these ships served as a flagships of the carrier battlegroups. In late 1990's the fate of these ships become in hands and it was decided that only one of them was modernized (124) due the limited funds. 124 was rebuild with new VLS launchers replacing the HQ-3s and new passive plannat array radar system was fitted (It served as a trial and test ship for the weaponsystems fielded to the 052C). 123 was laid up for reserve and was scrapped in 2004.
Important data:
Lenght: 178 m
Beam: 18,5 m
Draught: 8m
Dispalcement: 9000 tons full load
Machinery: steamplants, 80000 shp
Crew: 480
Aviation: aft helicopterdeck and hangar for 2 helicopters
Armament: 2 dual HQ-3B SAM launchers (30 missiles each end), 2 6-cell LY-60SAM launchers (18 missiles each), 8 Yj-81/CY-1 SSMs, 4x2 37mm CIWS. 2x4 533mm TT.
Here's pic of the standart configuration, I will post the modernized ship later on:
Attachments
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cruiserjpg.JPG
About the same size as an Arliegh Burke or Tico..a little larger actually..480 in the crew? Will all that crew be sleeping in those VLS cells or what?
..I realize the PLAN quaters would be a little more "Spartan" than a USN ship...But all kidding aside it will be crowed in those berthing areas. Not to mention this>>> Where will they eat????I'm surprised you did not go with the marine desiels..I guess in your senerio that the PLAN has well developed steam propulsion.
Well I used the soviet project 1134B (Kara class) for the base of this design which has crew of 540 with marginally smaller dimensions...
I've noticed that the russian and Chinese manning solutions are often bit different than in west...
The steam was ideal solution. In my "fantasy", the overall capability of the PLAN is somewhat similar to the soviets and as these ships design came from the 70's, marine diesels weren't availble solutions to main propulsion units of major warships. The steam plant used in these ships is still however based on the first soviet pressurized plants first time fitted to the pr. 41 class DDs which in real life were the Luda's anchestors. The machinery of these cruisers of mine is similar to the machinery plant that was fitted to the pr. 1134 Kresta I/II class (and eventually to Sovremennyys too) so it's not that unrealistic after all...
I've noticed that the russian and Chinese manning solutions are often bit different than in west...
The steam was ideal solution. In my "fantasy", the overall capability of the PLAN is somewhat similar to the soviets and as these ships design came from the 70's, marine diesels weren't availble solutions to main propulsion units of major warships. The steam plant used in these ships is still however based on the first soviet pressurized plants first time fitted to the pr. 41 class DDs which in real life were the Luda's anchestors. The machinery of these cruisers of mine is similar to the machinery plant that was fitted to the pr. 1134 Kresta I/II class (and eventually to Sovremennyys too) so it's not that unrealistic after all...
I'm going to borrow Golle's idea and write a "what if" design.
In the 1970s-1980s, the PRC was at odds with the USSR and was able to obtain limited western assistance in military modernization. After a study on installing Sea Dart SAMs on Luda DDG's determined that it wasn't feasible, the PLAN commissioned a new class of ships, based on a mix of imported British design (Type 82) and domestic design. 2 hulls were laid down in 1980's and fitted with imported systems from UK and AUS.
During this time, a ship in the 4,000 ton displacement range would still be classified as a "Destroyer". The new ship is designed to be 6,000-7,000 ton displacement range and classified as a "cruiser", though by 1990s newer PLAN destroyers would have similiar displacement. The "new" PLAN Guided Missile Cruiser is also the first and only PLAN major surface warship without a main gun.
PLAN Guided Missile Cruiser CG-X
Displacement: 6,000-7,000 tons
Length: 140-150 m
Beam: 15-16m
Crew: 400-450
Power: COSAG with 2 x domestic steam turbines + 2 imported Rolls Royce Gas Turbines
Speed: 28-30 knots maximum
Electronics: Mix of imported British systems & domestic systems
Sonar: Type 170 & 184 hull-mounted sonar system + towed VDS
Weapons:
GWS30 Twin-Arm Sea Dart SAM launcher with 32-40 rounds in auto-loader magazine, 2 x Type 909 illuminators. System can intercept 2 aerial targets at same time.
Ikara A/S launcher with 16-32 rounds
4-8 x C-801 SSM
4 x Type 76 Twin 37mm AAA guns
2 x Type 949 16-barrel chaff/decoy MLRS
2 x Type 72 240mm 12-tube ASW MLRS
Aviation:
Deck + hanger for 1 x ASW helicopter
Note: I'm not certain how much weapons you could actually squeeze on a platform like this in 1980s, so I've left the weapon ammuntion specs with a "range" like "16-32".
This ship was a "new concept" guided missile cruiser, intended to operate in a group and serving air-defense as well as ASW roles. Although it was the largest and most technically advanced ship in the PLAN, its captain and crew often complained about the missing main gun, comparring to an infantry's rifle without the bayonet.
By 2000's the ship was due for a major refit. Its C-801 SSM's were replaced by C-803, and the old style Type 76 AAA were replaced by Type 76A's. Ammuntion for the Sea Dart and Ikara systems were reaching its maximum shelf life and had to be replaced by reverse-engineered domestic copies. Some improvements were made to the ship's electronic systems, as well as an updated battle mangement system. The decoy/chaff and ASW MLRS were also replaced with newer versions.
I'll write another post for a "modern" missile cruiser later.
In the 1970s-1980s, the PRC was at odds with the USSR and was able to obtain limited western assistance in military modernization. After a study on installing Sea Dart SAMs on Luda DDG's determined that it wasn't feasible, the PLAN commissioned a new class of ships, based on a mix of imported British design (Type 82) and domestic design. 2 hulls were laid down in 1980's and fitted with imported systems from UK and AUS.
During this time, a ship in the 4,000 ton displacement range would still be classified as a "Destroyer". The new ship is designed to be 6,000-7,000 ton displacement range and classified as a "cruiser", though by 1990s newer PLAN destroyers would have similiar displacement. The "new" PLAN Guided Missile Cruiser is also the first and only PLAN major surface warship without a main gun.
PLAN Guided Missile Cruiser CG-X
Displacement: 6,000-7,000 tons
Length: 140-150 m
Beam: 15-16m
Crew: 400-450
Power: COSAG with 2 x domestic steam turbines + 2 imported Rolls Royce Gas Turbines
Speed: 28-30 knots maximum
Electronics: Mix of imported British systems & domestic systems
Sonar: Type 170 & 184 hull-mounted sonar system + towed VDS
Weapons:
GWS30 Twin-Arm Sea Dart SAM launcher with 32-40 rounds in auto-loader magazine, 2 x Type 909 illuminators. System can intercept 2 aerial targets at same time.
Ikara A/S launcher with 16-32 rounds
4-8 x C-801 SSM
4 x Type 76 Twin 37mm AAA guns
2 x Type 949 16-barrel chaff/decoy MLRS
2 x Type 72 240mm 12-tube ASW MLRS
Aviation:
Deck + hanger for 1 x ASW helicopter
Note: I'm not certain how much weapons you could actually squeeze on a platform like this in 1980s, so I've left the weapon ammuntion specs with a "range" like "16-32".
This ship was a "new concept" guided missile cruiser, intended to operate in a group and serving air-defense as well as ASW roles. Although it was the largest and most technically advanced ship in the PLAN, its captain and crew often complained about the missing main gun, comparring to an infantry's rifle without the bayonet.
By 2000's the ship was due for a major refit. Its C-801 SSM's were replaced by C-803, and the old style Type 76 AAA were replaced by Type 76A's. Ammuntion for the Sea Dart and Ikara systems were reaching its maximum shelf life and had to be replaced by reverse-engineered domestic copies. Some improvements were made to the ship's electronic systems, as well as an updated battle mangement system. The decoy/chaff and ASW MLRS were also replaced with newer versions.
I'll write another post for a "modern" missile cruiser later.
Project 1134B crew: 52 officers, 62 petty officers and 311 seamen.
Regarding the boilers - KV-41 and KV-76 were the first Soviet high temperature boilers fitted on Pr.41 and Pr.56 respectively, whereas KVN-95/64, KVN-98/64,KVG-3 and KVG-4 are high pressure boilers with supercharger.
I have no clue which of those were available for China as prototypes for Luda boilers.:china: