Ideal chinese carrier thread

[Pointblank]

Very interesting design. If this ship is based on container/tanker design, I guess it is possible (at least in the fiction world) to build larger versions of this ship. Some supertankers are over 300,000 tons in displacement. China's shipyards are capable of building really big oil tankers and container ships.

There is one reason why warships, especially those that go into harm's way, are built to military specifications, and are totally different animals compared to civilian ships. On carriers, it is even more dangerous due to the vast quantities of aviation fuel onboard. The many carrier fires the USN had with their carriers over the past 50 years is perhaps a very vivid reminder of the dangers so much aviation spirits in such a confined hull.

You board any merchant ship out there and you see fewer hose stations, fewer water tight bulkheads, fewer escape hatches in all spaces, fewer first aid stations, fewer damage control and fewer life rafts compared to a military ship. Merchant ships are designed to be disposable; if the ship is on fire no matter how big, you abandon it and save the lives of the crew. Military ships are a different story.

One lesson that was learned the hard way was the HMCS Kootenay incident. She suffered a gearbox explosion back in 1969, causing many dead, and many more wounded. One of the determinations that the resulting board of enquiry found was that the vessel did not have near enough firefighting equipment onboard it required and that more watertight bulkheads should be kept closed while vessel was at sea.

With warships, the more overbuilt they are, the better.

 

[man overbored]

"The many carrier fires the USN had with their carriers over the past 50 years is perhaps a very vivid reminder of the dangers so much aviation spirits in such a confined hull."

Many? Only five that I'm aware of. Oriskany, Forrestal and Enterprise during the Vietnam War, and two on Nimitz. The first when an S-3 went over the foul line landing and impacted several parked aircraft, causing several Sparrow missiles to detonate and again in 1988 during our deployment with her when a tech inadvertantly fired an A-7's cannon on deck setting seven aircraft on fire. In that final incident two squadron techs died, but the ship itself benefitted from the lessons of all the previous mishaps. I saw the wreckage the next morning as Nimitz came close aboard our ship. Seven airplanes were toasted but the flight deck foaming system confined the damage to just those aircraft. Several other foamed aircraft were not flyable afterward since the AFFF is mixed with sea water and is highly corrosive, but that morning the burned A-7's were shoved overboard and flight ops commenced. The ship itself was undamaged. Enterprise, Forrestal and Oriskany did not have flight deck or hanger automatic foam systems. Those mishaps led to the development of the current fire fighting systems.
As for a tanker hull serving as an emergency carrier hull, not a chance. Much too slow. A far better choice would be a modern high speed container ship hull. Most of the current 8000TEU and higher container ships need speeds of 27kts or greater in order to maintain their shipper's published schedules. As the number of containers increase the time to unload and re-load these ships increases. To maintain the normal turn around time for their customers, transit time has had to be reduced, leading to increasingly fast container ships. Their hull forms are very fine with sheer bows compared to the rather blunt hulls of the typical tanker. Tankers are ten knots slower at least.

This is a beautiful ship:

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Other modern container hulls:

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Look at the beautiful hull form of this ship:

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Now lets look at a tanker:

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You get the picture

 

[bd popeye]

The first when an S-3 went over the foul line landing and impacted several parked aircraft, causing several Sparrow missiles to detonate

Ahh actually that was in 1981 and it was an USMC EA-6B that crashed. Killing 14 Nimitz shipmates.

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An EA-6B aircraft attempting to land at night struck a helicopter, then hit another aircraft and tow tractor before coming to rest. A fuel fire erupted. Improved flight deck fire fighting systems quickly contained the fire, and once the fire was believed to be out, the order was given to start the clean-up.

As sailors approached the scene, a SPARROW missile warhead that was buried in the debris detonated. The explosion restarted the fire and three more warheads detonated before the fire could be extinguished. Fourteen sailors were killed and 45 injured. Three planes were destroyed and nine were damaged.

 

[man overbored]

Ahh actually that was in 1981 and it was an USMC EA-6B that crashed. Killing 14 Nimitz shipmates.

You are correct. I knew it had four seats but after that my brain let me down. Yeah, it hit an SH-3 killing the crew. What a nightmare. I have seen the video of that crash. The fire was almost out when more Sparrow missiles detonated and started things up again. Wasn't that the incident that led to mandatory drug testing because one of the pilots corpse tested positive for some controlled substance?
Nimitz was only in port 48 hours to ship the bodies off for burial, take the injured off to Tripler and clean up. There was little actual damage to the ship.

 

[bd popeye]

Wasn't that the incident that led to mandatory drug testing because one of the pilots corpse tested positive for some controlled substance?

ff
You are correct sir. Actually 13 of the 14 shipmates killed that day had some sort of drugs in their system. Including all the aircrew. Basically the CNO said enough is enough. The USN developed drug test and implimented it less that an year later. I know I was with VS-33 on the America at the time. The CNO made a video stating he was tired of the drug abuse in the USN. It was mandatory to watch. I think the CNO was ADM Hollowayff

 

[bd popeye]

Have any of you members or visitors ever read the first 10-12 pages of this thread? It is aweswome. Great discussion. I invite all to re-read those pages.

So..Now we know that the PLAN now has access to shipyard that can build an aircraft carrier of some type. I really do wish the PLAN was not so secreretive and would give us a hint about what they will do about their "phantom" CV program.

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?

Proposed PLAN CV

 

[Sczepan]

.....

What sort & how many CVs will the Chinese have if any???

What type of aircraft will they have?

When if ever will we see such a ship?
..

crawl - walk - run
at first they will pretty sure don't start with big sticks. It is a great investment, and a failure would be very expansiv;
and at first they would copy a proofed design, as I think.

Now chinese naval ingeneerts studied the design of MELBOURNE, KIEW - MINSK an VARJAG.

The VARJAG, indeed, is to be finished - as a trainee carrier like a lot of people suspect.

In my view the ship could be seaworthy in 2009/2010 - and the first crews could be well up in 2014/2015 ...
for the birds:
usable should be JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter (ASW) and KA-31 AEW Helos - and SU-33, but those not before 2014/2015.

But after that step?
The need of PLAN is
= support of amphibious operations (local air shield)
= escort of trade ships like tankers
= at least counter other carriers in case of conflict with a great super power.

Crawl - walk - run:

To minimize the risk, at first indegenious design I'll prefer a small Carrier, to operate JL-15 trainee and light weight ground attack fighters, WZ-10 attack and the Z-8 (SA 321Ja Super Frelon) Multirole Helicopter for support und transport operations. Also ASW and KA-31 AEW Helos

to support a local air shield.
This would be a amphibious carrier.
The carrier could be a derivate of the proofed MELBOURNE design, including modern engines (diesels), catapulte and angled deck. This little carrier also in political view is no a big thread to SE-Asien neighbours, so they would accept this kind of carrier without political rejection.

To operate the JL-15 would be indeed also a training for using big fighters like the (suspected) SU-33 with the future "big stick".
I'll prefer 2 or 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2009/2010 and finished in 2014/2015 (production continuing).

The next step - this is more speculation - should be for escort-operations.
In my opinion the KIEW / MINSK-Design is pretty sure a famous escort-carrier.
There (modernized) weapons (including ASW und AEW helos like the KA-31) and - if a catapult would be installed - the possibilty to operate carrier based fighters (J-XX? - double engined J-10 ?) and carrier based AEW planes would make a great escort service.

I also prefer 2 - 3 ships of that class, starting to be build in 2012 and finished in 2016/2017 up to 2020.

only as the last step I see carriers like bd popeye postet - but (indeed) with angled deck and catapulte!!

or

starting to be build in 2015 or later and not operationale before 2020. If chinese ingeneers want to work with the experience of the first carriers, they would'nt start to design this ship before 2015 - better 2020 I think.
I don't speculate about the fighters and helos, usable at this time ...

So in 2020 / 2025 the first chinese carrier fleet could include:
1 trainee carrier (Varjag) - operating JL 15, SU-33, Z-8 ASW and KA-31 AEW
3 to 5 amphibous carriers (Melbourne derivate) - operating JL-15, WZ-10, Z-8, KA-31 AEW
3 escort carriers (Kiew derivate) operating Z-8 ASW, KA-31 AEW (if catapulte also JL-15, J-xx)
1 indegenious "big stick" - operating SU-33, J-xx, ASW and AEW helos and aircrafts.

 

[Norfolk]

Will partially agree with Sczepan, although I would be inclined to consider that the PLAN has already passed through - or is in the midst of passing through - a few stages in carrier development. Studying HMAS Melbourne and two of the former Kiev-class carriers are obviously important for starters; but the construction of the Type 71 amphibious assault ship is a big concrete step forward, even considering the vast differences between aircraft carriers and amphibs. Couple the last to the PLAN's study and refurbishment of the former Varyag, and it may well be that China is ready to engage in full-scale construction of a fleet carrier.

Operation of course is an entirely different matter, and even if Varyag were to be completed and enter full service as an operational training ship within the next couple of years, it seems almost inconceivable that any new-built carrier or carriers could be properly manned and operated even at the most rudimentary level for at least a decade from now. But if and when that happens, the new-builds will almost certainly be CTOL/CATOBAR. If there is an intermediate stage, that will be Varyag itself with STOBAR, but not the new builds.

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).:coffee:

 

[bd popeye]

I'd really like some fresh (and genuine) photos from both Dalian and Changxing right now (sigh).

I hope you have a very large cup of coffee Norfolk..because we have not seen any updated photos of the Varyag in some time. I think the photos posted that claim to be new are just re-hashed pictures. Nothing more.

When I see something from the PLAN about the actual start of construction of a PLAN CV/LPH/LHA/CVH etc...etc.. I will then beleive it. Until then..I'm going to Starbucks..:coffee:

 

[tphuang]

let's put it this way, we haven't seen any picture of any new ships this year. It's almost like they stopped construction just to minimize the China fear ahead of the Olympics. I haven't had any material to post on my blog for a long time now.