How bad is corruption in China ? (Temprarily Closed)

SamuraiBlue said:

Civilized? When your opening comment is ;



I hardly think accusing someone in their first sentence as civilized.

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Truth is good defense. You accused Chinese law enforcement of kidnap without evidence, that's why I said you were trying too hard to frame Chinese police actions in bad light. So, if you have proof of kidnap, then present them. If you don't have proof, as I suspect, then you're biased and I stand by my original statement.

Blackstone said:

Truth is good defense. You accused Chinese law enforcement of kidnap without evidence, that's why I said you were trying too hard to frame Chinese police actions in bad light. So, if you have proof of kidnap, then present them. If you don't have proof, as I suspect, then you're biased and I stand by my original statement.

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As I said I made a comment based on the article at hand. That is your evidence show me based on my evidence that I have stated anything wrong.
Or just walk away.

SamuraiBlue said:

As I said I made a comment based on the article at hand. That is your evidence show me based on my evidence that I have stated anything wrong.
Or just walk away.

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You made a kidnapping charge without proof, and you said you did nothing wrong? Seriously? Do you really think that way?

Why are you going around in circles?
What the article wrote is PROOF and I am basing my comments based on the article.

SamuraiBlue said:

Why are you going around in circles?
What the article wrote is PROOF and I am basing my comments based on the article.

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Show me the "PROOF" in the article, where Chinese authorities kidnapped someone, as you charged. If the proof is there, then I'll say you're right, and if it's not, I hope you'll be intellectually honest and say so.

For reference, here's the article you made the kidnapping charge-

Chinese corruption fugitive repatriated from Malaysia
October 11, 2015


BEIJING, Oct. 11 -- A Chinese corruption suspect who fled to Malaysia in 2012 has been repatriated to China, the top anti-graft body said on Sunday.

Zhan Zaisheng, on a list of 100 most-wanted Chinese fugitives abroad released by China in April, was captured by Chinese police in Malaysia and was transferred back home during the National Day holiday, said the Communist Party of China's Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI).

Zhan is thought to be the 13th on the list to be captured so far.

According to another report by China News Service, Zhan, a former banking official born in 1962, was found profiting from illegally raised funds involving more than 680 million yuan.

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SamuraiBlue said:

This is basically kidnapping since the Chinese authorities does not have any investigation rights on foreign soil. The correct procedure would have been to notify the Malaysian police to apprehend the fugitive and extradite the suspect back to PRC for proper trial.

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I feel like you are making a few assumptions and immediately trying to come up with some of the worst case scenarios.
Assumptions, include the fact that we don't know whether or not Chinese authorities cooperated with Malaysian authorities -- you immediately assume the Chinese did not, which seems like a bit of a stretch given it would be difficult for China to conduct these operations without the consent of those nations in the first place. While we do not have explicit details regarding the arrest of Zhan Zaisheng in this case, we do have cases of previous officials who were sent back to China, with cooperation of the host nation.

And in the case of Malaysia, in June, China cooperated with Malaysian authorities to repatriate an official as well. So it is a heavy and unlikely assumption for you to believe that China would or could successfully conduct an arrest and repatriation of corrupt officials from foreign countries without their approval or cooperation... so maybe tone down your accusations a little bit before looking more at the context and the logic of your claim.

Zhan is not the first Chinese fugitive to be apprehended in Malaysia this year. In June, Shanghai police officers and Malaysian authorities collaborated to

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. The former Shanghai-resident is accused of defrauding his employer of 6 million yuan ($945,000) through a bogus VAT refund scheme.

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Bltizo said:

I feel like you are making a few assumptions and immediately trying to come up with some of the worst case scenarios.

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As I stated many times they are not assumptions they are fact based on the article at hand. No nation has the right to go into another nation and apprehend a fugitive in foreign soil which is exactly what that article wrote.


Now that we have a more accurate report could we put it at rest?

Too childish to continue.

SamuraiBlue said:

As I stated many times they are not assumptions they are fact based on the article at hand. No nation has the right to go into another nation and apprehend a fugitive in foreign soil which is exactly what that article wrote.

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So at best, you failed to apply common sense logic and immediately leaped to an unlikely conclusion with poor appreciation of past actions in similar cases.

Now that we have a more accurate report could we put it at rest?

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If you acknowledge that your assumptions and conclusion were illogical.

It is alright if you choose not to acknowledge it, but for the sake of good discussion I think being able to accept disagreements and to accept when one is wrong is a good thing. I try to do so myself, if I know I've lost an argument on logical grounds or poor sources.
For instance, in the PLAN carrier thread you have yet to acknowledge that we would likely not expect the side hanging sponsons on the carrier at such an early stage of construction, and the lack of acknowledgement means it might be brought up again in future discussion despite there having been substantial explanations as to why it would not be logical to expect it so early. That is detrimental to the larger goal of having earnest and clear discussion on this forum, IMO.

SamuraiBlue said:

As I stated many times they are not assumptions they are fact based on the article at hand. No nation has the right to go into another nation and apprehend a fugitive in foreign soil which is exactly what that article wrote.

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SamuraiBlue, you made a mistake and accused China of kidnapping without proof. No reasonable person could possibly read the article in question and say there's proof positive Chinese law enforcement kidnapped someone on foreign soil. Mistake happens, and it's not a big deal to admit it and move on.

I'm sure if it were done without Malaysia's permission, we would've heard in the news by now that China invaded Malaysia.