Hong-Kong Protests

manqiangrexue · Oct 17, 2019

PanAsian said:
While I see what you're saying I wouldn't necessarily relate spasms in one society necessarily to being overtaken by another. Prejudice such as many forms of racism and exceptionalism are irrational too, and are as often internal as external to societies and taken up by people when they are at the peak of power, the opposite of desperate. I think it is just a technical gimmick to attempt to avoid responsibility for greed and hypocrisy when people know others, and deep down themselves, actually know better.

While it's true that racism can definitely grow at the peak of power, I have seen that to be a very different kind of racism. When racism is borne of arrogance, it tends to be a very comfortable belittling with some accents of pity. When my father arrived in the US, that was the case. One time, while attempting to catch a taxi in NYC with his colleagues, his grip fumbled the door handle and he saw that they looked at each other with sly grins as one person said, "It's ok; he just got to America." They snickered because they thought he was inexperienced with how a car door handle worked because he's from such a backwards country and the poor man would finally learn now that he's made it to America. This kind of gentle pity is the type of racism exhibited from a peak society looking down at the citizens of a society that is in dire straits.

On the other hand, the type of racism that is borne out of decline and fear is an opposite type. There is no pity and nothing gentle about it; it is characterized by the hatred, defensiveness, and panic that you see when someone mentions Chinese technology or Chinese students in America today. There's no snickering, no pity and there's no comfortable feeling of superiority; it is, "Those rotten thieves come here to steal our tech then go home to build up their massive economy and military to take over the world! They must be stopped! Chinese students are spies and should be denied entry! If a Chinese person is caught stealing our tech secrets, it should be an automatic life sentence! Trade with China should be completely on our terms or none at all! Even if we all have to suffer, we need to all pitch in to stop them!"

That latter type of racism is what you see in an apprehensive and insecure society gripped with fear of being overtaken by a mighty rival. This is what you're looking for in to indicate that you really have 'em on the ropes.

KYli · Oct 17, 2019

Xsizor said:
Certainly. I have no beef with you (or anyone ftm). I just wanted to know what makes you think so. Suppose if that person had a history of being cunning / very slimy then there exists more reasons to believe the theory.
Thank you for keeping this thread stay true to its Title. Your contributions are very important here.

Because it is not the first time they did something like this, just google Lam Tsz-Kin.

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supersnoop · Oct 17, 2019

jimmyjames30x30 said:
That's quite slippery of you. Remember your own words in a previous quote:

You repeatedly stresses that That is as much of an outsider's view as it can be. Because Shenzhen wasn't modeled after Hong Kong at all. Now you try to support your argument by saying Lol, are trying to imply that every Chinese cadre who has worked/based in a place outside of mainland China necessarily modeled their reform project after the place they temporarily based on? Are you also trying to imply that any Chinese company that listed (or be one of the first to be listed) on a stock market outside of mainland China necessarily does everything subsequent project modeled on the country/territory where they listed.

You are full of crap. Sure, Shenzhen was a giant step toward a more market-oriented economy, that the rest of China held off on for a while. But Shenzhen is first and foremost a command economy that has an open market. Shenzhen is still a command economy. HK is NOT. Shenzhen has five-year plans, and Shenzhen's economy is NOT dominated by private capital. Never was, and never will be.

Shenzhen is a Hi-technology R/D and manufacturing services oriented economy. It is planned by the Chinese government to be such. This is not determined by private capital.
HK is a services-oriented economy dominated by financial services. The HK government has NOT power nor intention to plan for HK to be anything but. HK's economical structure is determined by capital, NOT planing.

HK is NOT a command economy, it's a total free and open market, dominated by private capital. SZ is a command economy with an open market. it is NOT dominated by private capital, but by state capital.

Moderator has already addressed you, so you should try to be civil.

1. "Modeled after" does not mean "copied every aspect". Nothing "slippery" about it.

2. Anyone from Chinese cadre, University grad, or homeless person on the street learns from their experience, this is just human nature.

A bio on Yuan said he was an artillery officer, perhaps he learned more from coordinating fire missions, fire discipline drill, coordinating the battery functions between gun line, command post, and forward observation (it's like different work units after all). Maybe his theory on efficiency was less based on what he saw in HK and more based on his battlefield experience, slow to adjust fire, change bearing, etc. means exposure to counterbattery fire.

Again, I can't speak to what he applied or didn't apply, I'm sure your father knows more than I do. That being said, do you think he took nothing from his experience in HK, even if he felt it was all the wrong things to do?

3. Listing on the stock market means attracting private capital. This also means dealing with things like bankers, underwriters, etc. Was this already well developed in PRC in the 80's? Command or free market economy in this context becomes irrelevant.

jimmyjames30x30 said:
Hong Kong did make some effort in more than a handful of start up projects to usher in a booming software, IT design sector. All of those failed. Shenzhen, on the other hand, is arguably the "silicon valley of hardware". DJI, HUAWEI, Tencent, and many other surging technology giants in China started in Shenzhen, NOT HK.

You mentioned that SZ is not dominated by private capital, but all the companies you just named were started with private capital. DJI was founded with their own money, one of Tencent's biggest single early investor was Naspers from South Africa, Huawei CEO insists his company is not directly connected to the government. This doesn't mean SZ is dominated by private capital, but clearly it plays an important role.

I'm not saying SZ is HK's carbon copy, that was never my point. That was your own flawed interpretation.

Anyway, like I said, this is all OT. You want to continue, I recommend PM.

PanAsian · Oct 17, 2019

manqiangrexue said:
While it's true that racism can definitely grow at the peak of power, I have seen that to be a very different kind of racism. When racism is borne of arrogance, it tends to be a very comfortable belittling with some accents of pity. When my father arrived in the US, that was the case. One time, while attempting to catch a taxi in NYC with his colleagues, his grip fumbled the door handle and he saw that they looked at each other with sly grins as one person said, "It's ok; he just got to America." They snickered because they thought he was inexperienced with how a car door handle worked because he's from such a backwards country and the poor man would finally learn now that he's made it to America. This kind of gentle pity is the type of racism exhibited from a peak society looking down at the citizens of a society that is in dire straits.

On the other hand, the type of racism that is borne out of decline and fear is an opposite type. There is no pity and nothing gentle about it; it is characterized by the hatred, defensiveness, and panic that you see when someone mentions Chinese technology or Chinese students in America today. There's no snickering, no pity and there's no comfortable feeling of superiority; it is, "Those rotten thieves come here to steal our tech then go home to build up their massive economy and military to take over the world! They must be stopped! Chinese students are spies and should be denied entry! If a Chinese person is caught stealing our tech secrets, it should be an automatic life sentence! Trade with China should be completely on our terms or none at all! Even if we all have to suffer, we need to all pitch in to stop them!"

That latter type of racism is what you see in an apprehensive and insecure society gripped with fear of being overtaken by a mighty rival. This is what you're looking for in to indicate that you really have 'em on the ropes.

To an extent. My point is not to be too eager to be/claim to be the cause of someone else's unease when there actually are plenty of other reasons that have nothing to do with you or are structural, even if they blame and/or lash out at you and it is tempting for the ego to take on the role. Kind of have to avoid even the unavoidable "by the guord field under the plum tree". At the same time I see the validity in that sometimes "one doesn't get know another without fighting". Anyways let's see what this coming weekend brings on the ground in HK.

Jura The idiot · Oct 18, 2019

inside
Hong Kong police block Sunday protest march against mask ban by Civil Human Rights Front
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the sentence
"Writing on his social media account on Wednesday, Sham called on the public to not harbour hatred against ethnic minorities, after reports that the attackers were not ethnically Chinese."
made me check

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Yesterday at 8:29 AM context

Jura said:
it appears someone hit back (I have to leave right after putting links below):

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Government condemns attack on Hong Kong protest leader Jimmy Sham

All kinds of violence are unacceptable, says deputy leader, adding that police will bring culprits to justice

Civil Human Right Front leader was hit with hammers and spanners on Wednesday night, the second time he was attacked in two months

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Nutrient · Oct 18, 2019

Xsizor said:
Yes. This. A SHATTERED HK is going to hurt China as much as a shattered Dalian or a Shattered Wuhan.

Economically, a shattered Hong Kong won't affect mainland China much. Hong Kong's GDP of $300 billion/year (USD) is only a tiny fraction of China's $12 trillion/year (USD). China would barely notice if the whole island stopped producing.

An US vs them narrative will only aid the secessionists.

Politically, still no. If a secessionist movement started up, the mainland would only have to ask the Hong Kongers how long they can live without fresh water. End of secessionist movement.

localizer · Oct 18, 2019

?
HK's GDP is not included in China official GDP.

Chian GDP is 14T+ now. It will be close to 15T next year. With HK and TW it will be 16T.

PPP wise we will be close to $30T in 2020.

Nutrient · Oct 18, 2019

localizer said:
?
HK's GDP is not included in China official GDP.

Actually, I don't know if Hong Kong's GDP is included in China's GDP. Doesn't matter much, the difference is only 2 percent or so.

Chian GDP is 14T+ now. It will be close to 15T next year. With HK and TW it will be 16T.

OK, China's GDP is $14 trillion, not $12 trillion.

That makes Hong Kong look even tinier.

solarz · Oct 18, 2019

Nutrient said:
Economically, a shattered Hong Kong won't affect mainland China much. Hong Kong's GDP of $300 billion/year (USD) is only a tiny fraction of China's $12 trillion/year (USD). China would barely notice if the whole island stopped producing.

Politically, still no. If a secessionist movement started up, the mainland would only have to ask the Hong Kongers how long they can live without fresh water. End of secessionist movement.

Strange how you think a PAP intervention to end violent riots would cause an international outcry, but depriving 7 million people of drinking water would not.

Comparing GDP numbers is meaningless. It wouldn't matter if HK was still a tiny fishing village, Beijing still has the duty to protect its citizens.

KIENCHIN · Oct 18, 2019

Nutrient said:
Actually, I don't know if Hong Kong's GDP is included in China's GDP. Doesn't matter much, the difference is only 2 percent or so.

OK, China's GDP is $14 trillion, not $12 trillion.
That makes Hong Kong look even tinier.

HK’s and Macau’s GDP is not included and neither is their foreign exchange reserve

Hong-Kong Protests

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

KYli

Brigadier

supersnoop

Major

PanAsian

Major

Jura The idiot

General

Nutrient

Junior Member

localizer

Colonel

Nutrient

Junior Member

solarz

Brigadier

KIENCHIN

Junior Member