Hong-Kong Protests

What a righteous woman, politics aside, saying it the way it is. Had I been there I would have given her a hand but then again being a man, I would have most probably been beaten to a pulp, these rioters have lost all sense of being Chinese, Note how disrespectful they were to this brave 70 year old. To those who don’t understand Cantonese, I hope one of us here could write a condenser version of what she said, my translation skills is only so,so.

Lam says Chinese military could step in if uprising gets bad
•October 8, 2019

HONG KONG (AP) — Hong Kong's leader Carrie Lam warned Tuesday that the Chinese military could step in if an uprising for democratic reforms that has rocked the city for months "becomes so bad" but reiterated the government still hopes to resolve the crisis itself.

Lam urged foreign critics to accept that the four months of protests marked by escalating violence were no longer "a peaceful movement for democracy."

She said seeking Chinese intervention was provided for under Hong Kong's constitution but that she cannot reveal under what circumstances she will do so.

"I still strongly feel that we should find the solutions ourselves. That is also the position of the central government that Hong Kong should tackle the problem on her own but if the situation becomes so bad, then no options could be ruled out if we want Hong Kong to at least have another chance," she told a news conference.

Quickie said:

I can't find Supersnoop's post to reply to so I sort of having to hitchhike on yours.

I think he's in danger of overgeneralizing Overseas Chinese by his reference to "pro-democracy" supporters of overseas local-born Chinese millennials.

The ethnic Chinese in South East Asia have a long history of immigration to the region stretching back to 600 years (The time of Zheng He voyages) and still retain their Chinese culture and language. I believe this is also true to some extent in some western countries although to a lesser degree in terms of population. As opposed to most western countries, there is very little recent immigration from China to SE Asia in the modern era.

Perhaps a line should be drawn on the supporters on both sides (in Vancouver, I haven't heard of any demonstration in relation to HK in Asian countries) between those who immigrated from HK for political reasons in the first place and those who immigrated from China and HK for reasons other than political.

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As the article I posted was about Vancouver, I was thinking more of North America. I definitely mentioned in an earlier post that I feel support for HK rioters is very low in SE Asia.
South East Asia is not a good comparison to NA, especially a place like Singapore which had a quite draconian "Speak Mandarin" campaign in the 80's, which was more like a "Stop speaking Cantonese and Hokkien" campaign, also its compulsory to learn there.
Similarly in Malaysia, the sense of identity is strong due to history, struggle against the colonial administration, etc. (William Kuok, the brother of Malaysia's richest man, Robert, was assassinated by the British)

Of course there is all kinds of history in North America as well (Railroad labour for one), but to get back on topic, as PanAsian mentioned, most came around 97. Would these people consider themselves more political or economic migrants? How does this shape their view of the trouble in HK? To address your point specifically as well, why do you feel that Chinese in western countries aren't detached from their culture? This is not my experience at all.

To offer a little more insight into my line of thinking here... When the kids reject or give up learning Chinese language, they give up a lot. Let's not go as far as using terms like "Banana", but if you are from Canada/USA, let's say they become more like "General Tso Chinese" (anyone from USA/Canada would understand this reference). Basically, they have Chinese essence, but essentially a North American product. As such, they will never learn concepts like 盡忠報國 (Serve the country loyally, tattooed on historical figure Yue Fei). The final result is that their conceptualization of these protests are almost wholly westernized and overly preoccupied with "Democracy" or "Freedom" etc. and anyone against it is "Communist" or "Pro-Beijing".

Quickie said:

I can't find Supersnoop's post to reply to so I sort of having to hitchhike on yours.

I think he's in danger of overgeneralizing Overseas Chinese by his reference to "pro-democracy" supporters of overseas local-born Chinese millennials.

The ethnic Chinese in South East Asia have a long history of immigration to the region stretching back to 600 years (The time of Zheng He voyages) and still retain their Chinese culture and language. I believe this is also true to some extent in some western countries although to a lesser degree in terms of population. As opposed to most western countries, there is very little recent immigration from China to SE Asia in the modern era.

Perhaps a line should be drawn on the supporters on both sides (in Vancouver, I haven't heard of any demonstration in relation to HK in Asian countries) between those who immigrated from HK for political reasons in the first place and those who immigrated from China and HK for reasons other than political.

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Just a slight correction: the earlier Chinese immigrants to Southeast Asia (not just the Treasure Voyages, see Wang Dayuan's Yuan dynasty journal Daoyi Zhilue about Chinese in Singapore and Indonesia in 1300), the Peranakans in SG/My/Indo, and the Thai Chinese+Philippine Sangleys lost their Chinese language long before colonial rule, and their culture (clothing, family customs) heavily infused with native practices. Peranakans did retain Chinese identity: many of them actively participated in the Xinhai Revolution but again, desire to Westernise China prob had something to do with it

Virtually none of the Singapore Chinese migrated because of political reasons (it was all about looking for work), but the same anti-China attitude can also be found here. The simple reason is that the British set up a hierarchy of job and business opportunities in their colonies with them on top and the Anglicised subjects next in line, with those who couldn't speak English at the bottom. When the British left, the 2nd class (people like Lee Kuan Yew) took over, perpetuated the hierarchy, restricting recognition and assistance to Chinese-medium schools while opening the economy mainly to Western MNCs and expatriates (and China was busy with GLF and CR at the time, and made culturally-Chinese people look ridiculous). This led to the infamous Pinkerton Syndrome where all things Western automatically became 'modern' and superior. The Chinese in SG and HK were willing to bear with 2nd class status because in their minds they were not really at the bottom, the "Ah Tiongs" (mainlanders) were the worst. That's also why they are now in denial about the fact that China has overtaken Singapore, Hong Kong and most of the West in technology, infrastructure, law and order and prosperity, because admitting it would destroy their ego. Few care about democracy, SG isn't one either. those who do are also motivated by blind idolising of all things Western, again to make themselves feel 'progressive', 'advanced' and 'modern' i.e. superior. of course American multimedia aids this, but they only believe because they have a confirmation bias, and they won't believe anything from China. so the suggestions to expand Chinese media global presence, yeah, not going to work...

The HK riots are almost entirely an identity issue. the housing/cost of living problem has been there since the Brits but nobody did anything like this.

When I was in ml China I noticed the decor/design/arts almost everywhere (esp. high end places) were Western (SG and HK is the same); non-Western more to be found at ancient sites, or low end places (else cheap quality or obviously inauthentic) so people don't psychologically link "Chineseness" with modernity, prosperity etc. The Japanese and Koreans infuse everything with their pre-Westernised culture: in SG many hold these in higher regard. the British propagated their culture and thence influence that way too. whatever your views on "changing culture" or whatever, stereotypes are a powerful psychological tool. The only way to undo the damage is a reversal of the hierarchy of opportunity with all forms of Chinese identity expression at the top.

KIENCHIN said:

What a righteous woman, politics aside, saying it the way it is. Had I been there I would have given her a hand but then again being a man, I would have most probably been beaten to a pulp, these rioters have lost all sense of being Chinese, Note how disrespectful they were to this brave 70 year old. To those who don’t understand Cantonese, I hope one of us here could write a condenser version of what she said, my translation skills is only so,so.

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I got the gist of it from the sub titles.
What a stroppy granda ma..She certainly gave them a earful, especially the reporter who she accused of not doing her job as a reporter by asking the hard question.
Its disheartning to see.no member of the public prepared to help her.

supersnoop said:

To address your point specifically as well, why do you feel that Chinese in western countries aren't detached from their culture?

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I didn't make any point in that regard. In fact. I've always thought they're more detached from their culture of origin than the ethnic Chinese in S.E. Asia. Most of them at least in Malaysia and Singapore speak their mother-tongue and the Chinese language is very popular in their entertainment industry.

KIENCHIN said:

What a righteous woman, politics aside, saying it the way it is. Had I been there I would have given her a hand but then again being a man, I would have most probably been beaten to a pulp, these rioters have lost all sense of being Chinese, Note how disrespectful they were to this brave 70 year old. To those who don’t understand Cantonese, I hope one of us here could write a condenser version of what she said, my translation skills is only so,so.

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There's subtitle, of note here is this so called "reporter" here is a web "reporter"... And she keeps asking the old lady loaded questions, the old lady is on to her game.
I hope nothing happens to the brave grandma, those rioters are an incredibly petty bunch, I won't be surprised if they try anything on her afterwords.

supersnoop said:

Basically, they have Chinese essence, but essentially a North American product. As such, they will never learn concepts like 盡忠報國 (Serve the country loyally, tattooed on historical figure Yue Fei). The final result is that their conceptualization of these protests are almost wholly westernized and overly preoccupied with "Democracy" or "Freedom" etc. and anyone against it is "Communist" or "Pro-Beijing".

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You guys are just making up a narrative to suit your agenda. Yue Fei was betrayed - period, not by some western government but by his own compatriots. Where was the conscience of 盡忠報國 with those chinese court officials who betrayed him? The notion of freedom is not a western concept but a value treasured by every human being regardless of ethnicity.

Quickie said:

I didn't make any point in that regard. In fact. I've always thought they're more detached from their culture of origin than the ethnic Chinese in S.E. Asia. Most of them at least in Malaysia and Singapore speak their mother-tongue and the Chinese language is very popular in their entertainment industry.

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I am an ex-Malaysian living in a western society, I speak in my mother-tongue with my children at home and at play. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening to some of my compatriots here, which is a problem as their children would eventually loose their culture and emotional ties with their ancestral country of origin.

So

B.I.B. said:

I got the gist of it from the sub titles.
What a stroppy granda ma..She certainly gave them a earful, especially the reporter who she accused of not doing her job as a reporter by asking the hard question.
Its disheartning to see.no member of the public prepared to help her.

Click to expand...

sorry guys, the version I saw on Facebook had very limited subtitles did not realise this version has better translation