Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Status
Not open for further replies.
There's much irony in this post. For the 99% in HK, their standard of living has been diminishing each passing year. And the Beijing approved govt hasn't done a satisfactory job in addressing this degradation. As a result, the concept of a democratically elected gov't without any conditions looks more and more as the silver bullet to their problems. In reality, it may or may not be the case. However, it is more the poor financial outlook of the common folk that is the impetus for these protests for democratic elections. If there was more bread available to everyone's table, these protests would diminish considerably.

I'm not too sure about that. Today my friend sent me a video and it pretty much listed all the major grievances. Economic wasn't too much of it in there. I'd like to share it with you guys, but I'm not sure if you guys understand Cantonese or literal in Chinese (for the subtitles)
 

Brumby

Major
I'm not too sure about that. Today my friend sent me a video and it pretty much listed all the major grievances. Economic wasn't too much of it in there. I'd like to share it with you guys, but I'm not sure if you guys understand Cantonese or literal in Chinese (for the subtitles)

Is it possible to summarise what they are? At least the major ones.

I can understand Cantonese even if they are news broadcast like from TVB.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
However I agree that HK's future does lie with China, and that China won't accept a candidate which is hostile to Chinese rule

Except that many HongKongese believe Beijing will take that to an extreme and veto any candidate that it thought wouldn't do exactly what it wanted on all key issues. The nomination committee rules are too strict to allow for meaningful choice at the moment.

If HKers realize their future does still lie with China and within Chinese sovereignty

I think they do, but they're increasingly getting hacked off with Beijing's attitudes. Remember that for years they patiently waited for universal suffrage. Each time they were patronisingly told "you're not ready", when actually it was Beijing that wasn't ready. But they still waited. Then when the so-called reforms come along, it looks like it will only be choice from the pro-Beijing camp. That's not choice.

Hostility towards Beijing in Hong Kong increased as time has gone on and reforms have been held back, whilst the city has faced increasing problems - largely as a result of inaction/policies from the Hong Kong administration. If Beijing won't let Hong Kong elect its leaders directly, of course they're going to be angry if those people aren't doing a good job.

Hostility towards Beijing does not equate to hatred of China. The protesters are trying to effect change that will benefit their lives by ensuring their leaders are accountable and put Hong Kong and its people first, not the corporations or Beijing first. A system (as now proposed) where fighting for nomination is arguably more difficult that winning the popular vote (if there are just 2 or 3 candidates) isn't necessarily going to produce leaders who put the former over the latter.
 
OK after some searching, I finally found the video for you guys.
I'm not sure how many of you are Chinese literate, but here it goes:
[video=youtube;-nBGMD4ZxmA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nBGMD4ZxmA&feature=youtu.be[/video]
The video came from a Japanese drama and is dubbed over with Cantonese voice and altered content.

This video is actually the key and talks about what and why HKers want to/should fight for democracy. However the biggest takeaway is what HK has gone through the past 30 years, I'll say.

Below is the transcript/dialogue.
以下為字幕全文:
群:群眾
古:古美門
薰:小薰

群:2017有普選了,無提名權,也有一人一票「袋住先」、對啊、對啊
古:説得好!我很欽佩大家的想法不愧是和理非非之城,這麼就搞定了,小黛,之後就拜託你了,再 見。

薰:律師,這樣就可以了嗎?
古:可以了。

薰:「是……村民不是這麼想,對吧各位?
群:真假普選我們不理,有錢賺才是最重要,是吧?對對對!

古:看吧,他們如此滿足的表情,蛇齋餅粽荔枝團回來,旅遊巴上就是這種表情,小黛你記清楚了。這個城巿根深 蒂固討厭政治的文化,人類習慣被長期飼養的話就會像這樣變成豬一樣的生物。

群:豬?你説的是我們嗎?
古:除此之外還有誰?連這點自覺都沒有,我真心羨慕,連被欺侮了也不知道就進了墳墓,真是幸福 的人生啊!

群:你説的太過分了吧!
古:真是十分抱歉,就像我最開始説的一樣,我十分討厭你們這種無知的愚民。

群:喂!臭小子,你有什麼了不起的,不知道尊敬年長者嗎?我們活得比你的兩倍還長!
古:活得比我的兩倍還長,卻還不清楚自己的處境。我才好心告訴你們的,知道嗎?你們是被政府愚弄的人,是愚 民。為了高官權貴所謂的「繁榮穩定」,連自己及後代的權利都出賣了,給你「一人一票」就上當,再給點甜頭你們就 閉嘴了,你們就是寄生於賣港政府的愚昧無知港豬!

薰:律師!不要再説了!
群:你才是寄生在豬身上的廢青!你對我們有什麼不滿意的?


古:從前的香港,有水深港濶的海港、新界有農田;由小小漁港變成華洋雜處世界聞名的城巿,以此為榮的人們不知何 時開始,將這裡稱呼為東方之珠。開埠之後繁榮起來,由漁港轉形成商港、轉口港,更發展了本地工業:紡織、塑 膠、鐘錶、電子……但是因為大陸開放,工業衰退了,到金融地產興起之後,就無心發展本地實業,變得依賴金融 地產,只靠炒賣投機賺快錢。到了89年六四,人人怕得要移民,説好的前途自決,高度自治無人理會了;到19 97年,一聲不吭就「被回歸」了,還建設了「門常開」這種沒有意義的氣派建築物,明明門常關還圍滿鐵馬,真 是「善用」公帑呢!抛棄了民意、法治、廉潔、國際標準,改成了中港融合保繁榮,甚麼新香港人、自由行、內交 、香圳啊,然後現在食物又有毒,東江水又貴又髒,所有住屋都被土豪炒貴了,就連供應全港蔬菜的新界東北,都 拆邊界變豪宅水貨商業城了。但是拿到了商品券,也感覺到了誠意和和諧,真是太好了、太好了!這樣土地和水都 能再復甦了吧?無奶粉、無學位、無床位也無問題了,小圈子特首繼續「顧全大陸」,也肯定不會再有什麼問題了 吧?因為你們有「一人一票袋住先」!

(老村民激動衝前毆打律師)
薰:等等……各位,冷靜一點!律師!
群:「%^&*」「我X你#$%^…X#$%^…我!@#$死你」


(眾村民痛哭)
群:讓伯的心情是理所當然的,對啊,為什麼要説這種過份的話,你這個惡魔!像你這種人,怎麼會懂我們的痛苦,如 你所説的,儘管不情願,但是我們還是知道的,再怎麼不甘心也無計可施,但是大家都忍氣吞聲讓自 己接受!


古:為甚麼?
群:為甚麼?

古:明明知道自己被當做愚民,為甚麼還要逼自己接受?
群:我們都年齡大了……

古:年齡大了又怎樣?
群:儘管身體不好,大家都一路努力過來了!

古:那又怎麼樣?所以就希望受到憐憫嗎?所以就希望得到撫慰嗎?所以別人一對你們好一點就會很高興嗎?難道 你們不覺得對不起祖先?不會愧於子孫後代嗎?甚麼「袋住先」?明明説好了有提名權、參選權、投票權先叫普選 !為甚麼你們都不這麼想?不出盡全力爭取到底?


古:有錢的就想賺夠就移民,不能走的,就假裝繁榮穩定生活下去。但是,如果你想獲得真正的自由,就必須看那些不 願意看的政治,必須帶著身負重傷的覺悟抗爭,自由的代價是永恆地警覺,佔中不是全部,但佔中所爭取的普選就 是,是你們向賣港政府反擊,見識你們骨氣的方法,是奪回被剝奪的普選權利和尊嚴最適合的代價,除此以外什麼 都不是!

古:你以前是入境處職員,千萬個單程證來港你無權過問;放火燒死你同事的施君龍,現在用單程證來港定居啦!你以 前是皇家香港警察,現在滿街愛港力青關會亮刀鬧事,警察淪落到替他們遊行開路,淪落到要李偲傿同土共出來「 撐警察」,六七暴動害死你同袍的楊光拿大紫荊勲章啦。廉政專員送茅台公費遊埠、行會成員逃稅賣樓、高官破產 囤地僭建、電視發牌黑箱作業、數以億計公帑利益輸送、超支爛尾高鐵、新界東北強搶地、舔共國民教育、問責高 官無人問責,不了了之,全因立法會有零票當選特權功能組別包庇,我年年七一遊行要求雙普選,幾 時先有呀?


古:期待過你們會義憤填膺的我真是非常愚蠢,聽好了,不再把我捲入你們消磨養老時光的事中,和理非非的港豬 們,袋住一人一票假普選走向人生盡頭吧!那麼各位,再也不見!
 
Last edited:

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Except that many HongKongese believe Beijing will take that to an extreme and veto any candidate that it thought wouldn't do exactly what it wanted on all key issues. The nomination committee rules are too strict to allow for meaningful choice at the moment.

And I'm sure Beijing believes any universal sufferage within the next few years will put up a leader that will seek independence or subversion of central govt power. That's probably why they chose to make it slow. The circumstances, unfortunately, were poor given the preceding few years of reasons I've mentioned in previous posts.

If the protesters could be clearer about the key points that bother them, instead of slogans which sound generally subversive vis-a-vis the central government and the occasional (but highly noticeable) extremist action such as waving the colonial flag, then I expect the govt will be more willing to listen now.

Something else worth mentioning is for the protesters to demonstrate they are for HK and not the appendage of any foreign elements. As distasteful as it sounds, they'll have to seek more democracy while reiterating loyalty to a few of the fundamental principles of HK which the central government will not budge on.

Wukan worked out for everyone because despite the chants of "down with dictatorship," there was also "long live the communist party". I obviously don't expect anything like that from the HK protesters, but the principle remains similar


I think they do, but they're increasingly getting hacked off with Beijing's attitudes. Remember that for years they patiently waited for universal suffrage. Each time they were patronisingly told "you're not ready", when actually it was Beijing that wasn't ready. But they still waited. Then when the so-called reforms come along, it looks like it will only be choice from the pro-Beijing camp. That's not choice.

Hostility towards Beijing in Hong Kong increased as time has gone on and reforms have been held back, whilst the city has faced increasing problems - largely as a result of inaction/policies from the Hong Kong administration. If Beijing won't let Hong Kong elect its leaders directly, of course they're going to be angry if those people aren't doing a good job.

Hostility towards Beijing does not equate to hatred of China. The protesters are trying to effect change that will benefit their lives by ensuring their leaders are accountable and put Hong Kong and its people first, not the corporations or Beijing first. A system (as now proposed) where fighting for nomination is arguably more difficult that winning the popular vote (if there are just 2 or 3 candidates) isn't necessarily going to produce leaders who put the former over the latter.

Sure, I don't disagree with anything in particular said here.

However, now that they've made a peaceful show of force, I think the best thing they can do, as the potential voting public for any true universal sufferage scheme, is to demonstrate they won't tolerate anyone that goes against key issues that Beijing won't tolerate -- namely independence, and subversion of the central government on the mainland.

While I can understand their anti central government attitude given various occurrences in recent years, they'll have to weigh up whether their desire for democracy can fit within a framework whereupon independence is a big nono, and where any HKSAR government and CE must not challenge state power on the mainland or host such groups in an official capacity.
 
Last edited:
Except that many HongKongese believe Beijing will take that to an extreme and veto any candidate that it thought wouldn't do exactly what it wanted on all key issues. The nomination committee rules are too strict to allow for meaningful choice at the moment.



I think they do, but they're increasingly getting hacked off with Beijing's attitudes. Remember that for years they patiently waited for universal suffrage. Each time they were patronisingly told "you're not ready", when actually it was Beijing that wasn't ready. But they still waited. Then when the so-called reforms come along, it looks like it will only be choice from the pro-Beijing camp. That's not choice.

Hostility towards Beijing in Hong Kong increased as time has gone on and reforms have been held back, whilst the city has faced increasing problems - largely as a result of inaction/policies from the Hong Kong administration. If Beijing won't let Hong Kong elect its leaders directly, of course they're going to be angry if those people aren't doing a good job.

Hostility towards Beijing does not equate to hatred of China. The protesters are trying to effect change that will benefit their lives by ensuring their leaders are accountable and put Hong Kong and its people first, not the corporations or Beijing first. A system (as now proposed) where fighting for nomination is arguably more difficult that winning the popular vote (if there are just 2 or 3 candidates) isn't necessarily going to produce leaders who put the former over the latter.

Very well said. The video I just posted is exactly what it's about. The real anger and hatred and grievances are towards HKSAR government.
 
OK after some searching, I finally found the video for you guys.
I'm not sure how many of you are Chinese literate, but here it goes:
[video=youtube;GfmYgLaHZ3A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=GfmYgLaHZ3A&app=desktop[/video]
The video came from a Japanese drama and is dubbed over with Cantonese voice and altered content.

This video is actually the key and talks about what and why HKers want to/should fight for democracy. However the biggest takeaway is what HK has gone through the past 30 years, I'll say.

Below is the transcript/dialogue.

When I watched this video, somewhere I can say I feel just like the villagers. In fact I think most HKers will feel this way. The criticisms slammed on the villagers is exactly referring to what's been happening, and how HKSAR is selling out its people, and they're pretty much all accurate and ACTUALLY what's been happening in HK. This video actually enlightened me to a lot of things I am unaware, have no knowledge about, their significance.

This is also why I disagree with that Jacque's passage, but also been telling you guys why what you guys are saying is barely scraping the surface when you guys are referring all to only economic reasons.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I do find the sanctimony from Western countries over the call to "freely select" leaders is actually quite amusing, given that in virtually every European country, leaders are produced and groomed by party machines and simply presented as a leader in time for the next election.
British PM Cameron example, was an "unknown" back bencher with no government or ministerial experience prior to his appointment as party leader. I do not believe he even held a senior shadow position in opposition.
I realise the US is different and that it is about the ability to recruit billionaires to your campaign. Even here though, I cannot think of a single president that achieved office outside of the party system.

Its not a realistic demand and sounds like the kind of populist slogan a spin doctors would dream up in order to cause maximum disruption. More sophisticated electors, inured to the appeal through bitter experience, would see through it very quickly, but here that experience is yet to be gained and so trust; whoever undeserved, is high.

I certainly do not wish to see any sanction against the kids; but I do know how spoilt and cosseted many have become and think a few months away from home, doing Winter "Peace Work" in remote and still undeveloped parts of the country would give them a better perspective of the state as a whole and an appreciation of the benefits they enjoy.

My ire on this falls on the usual suspect overseas NGO's and Cults. I hope that these events will demonstrate that these organisations have outstayed and abused their welcome and that they will be sent packing back from whence they came.
 
That video I posted will be my major answer to why HKers want direct election. I want to know who can understand the Chinese transcript I posted first of all. I will translate the dialogue, but most importantly a lot of the things mentioned inside would be things you guys won't necessarily understand.
 

Player 0

Junior Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy
Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success
Share 2013


inShare
5
Email
Martin Jacques
Martin Jacques
The Guardian, Wednesday 1 October 2014 04.45 AEST
Jump to comments (517)
Pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong
Pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong on Tuesday. ‘Hong Kong has lost its role as the gateway to China.’ Photograph: Chris McGrath/Getty Images
The upheaval sweeping Hong Kong is more complicated than on the surface it might appear. Protests have erupted over direct elections to be held in three years’ time; democracy activists claim that China’s plans will allow it to screen out the candidates it doesn’t want.

It should be remembered, however, that for 155 years until its handover to China in 1997, Hong Kong was a British colony, forcibly taken from China at the end of the first opium war. All its 28 subsequent governors were appointed by the British government. Although Hong Kong came, over time, to enjoy the rule of law and the right to protest, under the British it never enjoyed even a semblance of democracy. It was ruled from 6,000 miles away in London. The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government. In 1990 the latter adopted the Basic Law, which included the commitment that in 2017 the territory’s chief executive would be elected by universal suffrage; it also spelt out that the nomination of candidates would be a matter for a nominating committee.

This proposal should be seen in the context of what was a highly innovative – and, to westerners, completely unfamiliar – constitutional approach by the Chinese. The idea of “one country, two systems” under which Hong Kong would maintain its distinctive legal and political system for 50 years. Hong Kong would, in these respects, remain singularly different from the rest of China, while at the same time being subject to Chinese sovereignty. In contrast, the western view has always embraced the principle of “one country, one system” – as, for example, in German unification. But China is more a civilisation-state than a nation-state: historically it would have been impossible to hold together such a vast country without allowing much greater flexibility. Its thinking – “one civilisation, many systems” – was shaped by its very different history.

In the 17 years since the handover, China has, whatever the gainsayers might suggest, overwhelmingly honoured its commitment to the principle of one country, two systems. The legal system remains based on English law, the rule of law prevails, and the right to demonstrate, as we have seen so vividly in recent days, is still very much intact. The Chinese meant what they offered. Indeed, it can reasonably be argued that they went to extremes in their desire to be unobtrusive: sotto voce might be an apt way of describing China’s approach to Hong Kong. At the time of the handover, and in the three years I lived in Hong Kong from 1998, it was difficult to identify any visible signs of Chinese rule: I recall seeing just one Chinese flag.

Notwithstanding this, Hong Kong – and its relationship with China – was in fact changing rapidly. Herein lies a fundamental reason for the present unrest: the growing sense of dislocation among a section of Hong Kong’s population. During the 20 years or so prior to the handover, the territory enjoyed its golden era – not because of the British but because of the Chinese. In 1978 Deng Xiaoping embarked on his reform programme, and China began to grow rapidly. It was still, however, a relatively closed society. Hong Kong was the beneficiary – it became the entry point to China, and as a result attracted scores of multinational companies and banks that wanted to gain access to the Chinese market. Hong Kong got rich because of China. It also fed an attitude of hubris and arrogance. The Hong Kong Chinese came to enjoy a much higher standard of living than the mainlanders. They looked down on the latter as poor, ignorant and uncouth peasants, as greatly their inferior. They preferred – up to a point – to identify with westerners rather than mainlanders, not because of democracy (the British had never allowed them any) but primarily because of money and the status that went with it.

Much has changed since 1997. The Chinese economy has grown many times, the standard of living of the Chinese likewise. If you want to access the Chinese market nowadays, why move to Hong Kong when you can go straight to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu and a host of other major cities? Hong Kong has lost its role as the gateway to China. Where previously Hong Kong was China’s unrivalled financial centre, now it is increasingly dwarfed by Shanghai. Until recently, Hong Kong was by far China’s largest port: now it has been surpassed by Shanghai and Shenzhen, and Guangzhou will shortly overtake it.

Two decades ago westerners comprised the bulk of Hong Kong’s tourists, today mainlanders account for the overwhelming majority, many of them rather more wealthy than most Hong Kong Chinese. Likewise, an increasing number of mainlanders have moved to the territory – which is a growing source of resentment. If China needed Hong Kong in an earlier period, this is no longer nearly as true as it was. On the contrary, without China, Hong Kong would be in deep trouble.

Understandably, many Hong Kong Chinese are struggling to come to terms with these new realities. They are experiencing a crisis of identity and a sense of displacement. They know their future is inextricably bound up with China but that is very different from embracing the fact. Yet there is no alternative: China is the future of Hong Kong.

All these issues, in a most complex way, are being played out in the present arguments over universal suffrage. Hong Kong is divided. About half the population support China’s proposals on universal suffrage, either because they think they are a step forward or because they take the pragmatic view that they will happen anyway. The other half is opposed. A relatively small minority of these have never really accepted Chinese sovereignty. Anson Chan, the former head of the civil service under Chris Patten, and Jimmy Lai, a prominent businessman, fall into this category, and so do some of the Democrats. Then there is a much larger group, among them many students, who oppose Beijing’s plans for more idealistic reasons.

One scenario can be immediately discounted. China will not accept the election of a chief executive hostile to Chinese rule. If the present unrest continues, then a conceivable backstop might be to continue indefinitely with the status quo, which, from the point of view of democratic change, both in Hong Kong and China, would be a retrograde step. More likely is that the Chinese government will persist with its proposals, perhaps with minor concessions, and anticipate that the opposition will slowly abate. This remains the most likely scenario.

An underlying weakness of Chinese rule has nevertheless been revealed by these events. One of the most striking features of Hong Kong remains the relative absence of a mainland political presence. The Chinese have persisted with what can best be described as a hands-off approach. Their relationship to the administration is either indirect or behind the scenes. Strange as it may seem, the Chinese are not involved in the cut and thrust of political argument. They will need to find more effective ways of making their views clear and arguing their case – not in Beijing but in Hong Kong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top