Has China already over-taken Russia in some sections of Military Avaiation ?

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legoboy

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I was doing a little bit of research and I've been leaning towards the fact that the Chinese J-20 might possibly be superior than the Russian PAK-FA.

For one the estimated cost of the J-20 is more than double that of the PAK-FA, despite the fact that China can manufacture at far cheaper prices than Russia. Would this be implying the Chinese one is just packed with far more technology?

The PAK-FA's pricing is also a little bit strange. Unless the $50 pricing is wrong, it seems extremely cheap for a Steath Fifth Generation Jet. Could the Russian jet actually just be a 4.5++ Gen Fighter with Stealth Capabilities ?
 
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HKSDU

Junior Member
Most of Russians new military equipment are delayed and over budget. The Russians despite signing contracts sometimes don't deliver on what the sign contract states. So if it's coming from a Russian source....it'll be very mediocre quality. Considering the Su-35 is around the ~$50 million unit cost mark, $50 million for T-50 is complete and utter crap. The Su-35 is just a Su-27 but updated to 21st century technology and materials. The T-50 is newish and required large development budget, which would escalate initial unit batch cost.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
legoboy said:
I was doing a little bit of research and I've been leaning towards the fact that the Chinese J-20 might possibly be superior than the Russian PAK-FA.

For one the estimated cost of the J-20 is more than double that of the PAK-FA, despite the fact that China can manufacture at far cheaper prices than Russia. Would this be implying the Chinese one is just packed with far more technology?

The PAK-FA's pricing is also a little bit strange. Unless the $50 pricing is wrong, it seems extremely cheap for a Steath Fifth Generation Jet. Could the Russian jet actually just be a 4.5++ Gen Fighter with Stealth Capabilities ?
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Be aware of state subsidies. Those are nested in the budget and can lower the nominal cost. Overall it might be better to go through the entire value chain and take a value added approach to figure out true costs, as opposed to looking at the sticker price.

Also keep in mind that final sticker price has to cover the entire production cost, which sometimes includes development of new technologies which will cheapen the cost of future designs but give a higher cost to initial ones. It could simply be a case where China has to cover these costs with the J-20 as it's trying to catch up technologically while these same development costs are spread out over a longer time and through different designs in Russia.
 
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paintgun

Senior Member
engines, certainly no
aerodynamics, hmm no
materials, yes
electronics and avionics, yes and no
structures and manufacturing, yes
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
legoboy said:
I was doing a little bit of research and I've been leaning towards the fact that the Chinese J-20 might possibly be superior than the Russian PAK-FA.

For one the estimated cost of the J-20 is more than double that of the PAK-FA, despite the fact that China can manufacture at far cheaper prices than Russia. Would this be implying the Chinese one is just packed with far more technology?

The PAK-FA's pricing is also a little bit strange. Unless the $50 pricing is wrong, it seems extremely cheap for a Steath Fifth Generation Jet. Could the Russian jet actually just be a 4.5++ Gen Fighter with Stealth Capabilities ?
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your assessment is pretty incorrect, PAKFA is by no means inferior to J-20 and the price is not 50 million, Russian estimates are USD$100 million.

Let us start by technologies.

PAKFA has tested two types of fifth generation engine, 117 and type 30, plus they have two flying prototypes soon to be joined by another third.

Su-35S has confirmed supercruise and multiaxis thrust vectoring; T-50 PAKFA has confirmed supercruise and 3D thrust vectoring with the smallest tail section of any stealth fighter, plus it is the first ever fighter to use LEVCONs.

PAKFA uses lots of nano technologies specially a new type of paint that reduces RCS considerably.

Now the main critics it has is rounded aft nacelles and perhaps that the current prototypers might have not a radar blocker, however Russian reports seem to be working into advance Radar blockers and nano tecnologies to avoid the use of S ducts.

Russia currently builds and is developing engines for the An-124 and Tu-160 which are 20 tonnes thrust power and has two types of fifth generation engines.

So in engine design Russia and PAKFA are ahead of J-20.

In aerodynamics Russia developed a first in LEVCON, so still ahead in aerodynamics.

Missiles well Russia has R37 on MiG-31s and will fit longer range missiles into PAKFA, that makes Russia ahead in missie technology for fighters.

Now where i see China slightly ahead of Russia is UCAV development, but i am not sure.

China is behind to Russia, but in reality not by much and could potentially surpass Russia in one or two decades, if Russia fails to re-organize Ukraine into its side, however it seems Russia is still working with Ukraine on projects like An-148 and An-124, so is probable they will more or less matched in 30 years from now.


Ranking the BRIC nations is hard, but China is in a good position, but it is not ahead of any bric nation as a whole, they are pretty well matched in many areas.
 
SinoSoldier

SinoSoldier

Colonel
MiG-29 said:
your assessment is pretty incorrect, PAKFA is by no means inferior to J-20 and the price is not 50 million, Russian estimates are USD$100 million.

Let us start by technologies.

PAKFA has tested two types of fifth generation engine, 117 and type 30, plus they have two flying prototypes soon to be joined by another third.

Su-35S has confirmed supercruise and multiaxis thrust vectoring; T-50 PAKFA has confirmed supercruise and 3D thrust vectoring with the smallest tail section of any stealth fighter, plus it is the first ever fighter to use LEVCONs.

PAKFA uses lots of nano technologies specially a new type of paint that reduces RCS considerably.

Now the main critics it has is rounded aft nacelles and perhaps that the current prototypers might have not a radar blocker, however Russian reports seem to be working into advance Radar blockers and nano tecnologies to avoid the use of S ducts.

Russia currently builds and is developing engines for the An-124 and Tu-160 which are 20 tonnes thrust power and has two types of fifth generation engines.

So in engine design Russia and PAKFA are ahead of J-20.

In aerodynamics Russia developed a first in LEVCON, so still ahead in aerodynamics.

Missiles well Russia has R37 on MiG-31s and will fit longer range missiles into PAKFA, that makes Russia ahead in missie technology for fighters.

Now where i see China slightly ahead of Russia is UCAV development, but i am not sure.

China is behind to Russia, but in reality not by much and could potentially surpass Russia in one or two decades, if Russia fails to re-organize Ukraine into its side, however it seems Russia is still working with Ukraine on projects like An-148 and An-124, so is probable they will more or less matched in 30 years from now.


Ranking the BRIC nations is hard, but China is in a good position, but it is not ahead of any bric nation as a whole, they are pretty well matched in many areas.
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1. China also has two types of engines for potential 5th generation fighters, the WS-10G, and the WS-15

2. The J-20, if equipped with WS-15, will have a thrust to weight ratio of 1.47, definitely to give it supercruise.

3. LEVCONs improve low speed stability which are the same effect as canards

4. J-20 uses a new type of alloy that reduces weight considerably while adding strength

5. China is building WS-18 engine for Y-20, 12+ tonne thrust

6. China has the PL-12D, PL-12C, PL-15, and PL-21 missiles. China also has a high agility missile PL-10

7. Chinese missiles have extremely high agility (38 g) and tracking abilities

8. "Slightly ahead"? Russia so far has not revealed a dedicated attack UCAV in testing and so far does not have either a HALE or MALE URAV

Both Russia and China have their respective advantages over the other.
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
SinoSoldier said:
1. China also has two types of engines for potential 5th generation fighters, the WS-10G, and the WS-15

2. The J-20, if equipped with WS-15, will have a thrust to weight ratio of 1.47, definitely to give it supercruise.

3. LEVCONs improve low speed stability which are the same effect as canards

4. J-20 uses a new type of alloy that reduces weight considerably while adding strength

5. China is building WS-18 engine for Y-20, 12+ tonne thrust

6. China has the PL-12D, PL-12C, PL-15, and PL-21 missiles. China also has a high agility missile PL-10

7. Chinese missiles have extremely high agility (38 g) and tracking abilities

8. "Slightly ahead"? Russia so far has not revealed a dedicated attack UCAV in testing and so far does not have either a HALE or MALE URAV

Both Russia and China have their respective advantages over the other.
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Russian engines are flying, WS-15 is not flying niether on J-20.
117 and type T-30 have been flown and this was confirmed by Saturn. T-30 is a 16000kg-17000kg engine
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NK-32 is flying on Tu-160, and PS-90 is already flying on Tu-204,
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so despite China is closing the gap and perhaps if Russia can not work togather with Ukraine, China might surpass Russia in two decades, but now Russia is undoubtedly ahead
 
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