Harrier supersonic?

Nice "PS" Obi Wan. Very nice indeed....

Great Idea..probally a billion dollars worth of upgrades.....

Too bad Uncle Sam won't sell a used LHA to anyone. Imangine your design with say..oh...16 or so F-35 JSF. Coupled with about 10 SH-60's and 4 Super Cobra's...Nice.....Oh well ..I guess the USN will be sinking the USS Saipan in the next couple of years... Maybe the US will lossen up and sell the LHA to Austraila, Japan..ouch, or maybe even Canada.

Photo shop? I wish! Basic microsoft Paint! But seriously, I was just trying to illustrate the potential within the LHA/LHD design. By the way, don't forget to include a flight of AEW Helos in that air group, either EH101s with searchwater radar or a variant of the V-22 Osprey would be my choice. I've always assumed the reason the design of these ships was restricted had a lot to do with the influence of the pro-CVN lobby in the USN (remember the debates in the 70's about Admiral Zumwalt's Sea Control Ship programme? The SCS was never intended to compete with the CVN, rather it was a replacement for the Essex class CVS.), who would vehemently oppose anything that might be construed as an alternative to a full deck carrier. These improvements could more easily be incorporated in the next generation of LHDs, and as I said if you can only afford one big ship, multi role is the way to go. In the design I mocked up the port side deck extension would allow for an increase in internal volume and rearrangement of compartments allowing the Hangar deck to be extended forward without reducing troop carrying capacity. In the debate about the Aussie LHD program the most heated debate appears to revolve around carrying fighters verses carrying troops, well if you make more room inside you can do both (simplistic I know but possible nonetheless).

Obi Wan Russell said:

If you want to hear a first hand account of the Harriers performance rather than third hand rumours and speculation I suggest you read "Sea Harrier over the Falklands" by Commander Nigel 'Sharkey' Ward, who commandded 801 Naval Air Squadron flying from HMS Invincible during the campaign.

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Great read! Another GREAT account that I would highly recommend is "The Battle for the Falklands", by Hastings and Jenkins. It gives am excellent account about the buildup, and particularly good accounts about all of the Air, Sea, and land battles, and the thinking and planning behind them. Although but a relatively small AO and actual fight, it was an amazing accomplishment by the UK, and some spirited (and costly to the UK) defense, particularly by the Argentine air force.

Remember, the Falklands war wasn't just about liberating the islands, for the Royal Navy it was a fight for it's very survival against ill considered defence cuts brought in by yet another batch of ignorant politicians. Almost two thirds of the Royal Navy's strength was dispatched to the South Atlantic even though most of the major units were scheduled for premature disposal, including both carriers (Invincible was to be sold to Australia in early 1983 and Hermes was to be scrapped around the same time, leaving just the yet to be completed Illustrious and Ark Royal. The two LPDs Fearless and Intrepid were also due to be sold,- to Argentina! If they had waited a year it would have been a very different story) and a large number of destroyers and frigates. British losses in the campaign can directly be attributed to decades of defence cuts that left the British forces woefully short of equipment.
The prime minister Margaret Thatcher was so ill informed about the state of the RN at the start that when she asked about what ships were being sent, she was shocked to discover that the (old) Ark Royal wouldn't be going as she had been sold for scrap two years earlier! Ark's F4s and Buccaneer strike aircraft had been handed over to the RAF and so would be unable to contribute anything to the task force, and the failure to replace the Fairey Gannet AEW aircraft was little short of criminal negligence.

Ultimatley I believe that the Falklands war proves that a weak defence posture only makes conflict more likely, and strong armed forces are the best way to keep the peace. Argentina invaded because they (wrongly) believed Britain had neither the will or the means to fight back, and that was an easy mistake to make given Britain's continued dismemberment of it's own armed forces in the preceding years.

Obi Wan Russell said:

Remember, the Falklands war wasn't just about liberating the islands, for the Royal Navy it was a fight for it's very survival against ill considered defence cuts brought in by yet another batch of ignorant politicians.

Ultimatley I believe that the Falklands war proves that a weak defence posture only makes conflict more likely, and strong armed forces are the best way to keep the peace. .

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Amen and spot on on all counts. The book I suggested talks to these issues in some detail. Fact is, the UK had to literally scrape together a force...and that force then went down there and performed admirably, despite the losses.

Obi Wan sez...

By the way, don't forget to include a flight of AEW Helos in that air group, either EH101s with searchwater radar or a variant of the V-22 Osprey would be my choice

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First off..thanks for bringing some mature sanity to our forum! You are my new favorite poster.

I forgot about the Osprey. Which by the way the USMC is buying as it is now going into production. I was thinking about the capacity of such a re-worked ship while I was at work...Lets see what the air wing would be..

12 F-35 JSF, 6 V-22 Osprey, 2 EH101(don't know if the USN would go for that)...4 Super Cobras, 4 SH-60R...for ASW & SAR. And of course the troops, about 1,000, and all their assoicated equipment.

You know the USN and USMC is developing the LHA(R). Which will be a replacement for the LHA's.



The LHA(R) amphibious assault ship is designed specifically to meet future Navy-Marine Corps requirements, able to support the expanded capability of 21st century expeditionary strike platforms such as the MV-22 Osprey helicopter and the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter airplanes. LHA 6, the first ship of the LHA(R) program, will be able to operate and support a detachment of 20+ Joint Strike Fighters. LHA 6 features several aviation capabilities enhanced beyond previous amphibious assault ships. These include an enlarged hangar deck, realignment and expansion of the aviation maintenance facilities, a significant increase in available stowage for parts and support equipment, and increased aviation fuel capacity.

LHA 6 will be multi-functional and versatile, modifying existing Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence (C4I) spaces to allow for flexible mission dependent reconfiguration. LHA 6 will also have increased cargo magazine capacity, better survivability, and greater service life margins.

LHA 6 will use the same gas turbine propulsion plant, zonal electrical distribution and electric auxiliary systems being designed and built for LHD 8, the final of the Wasp class amphibious assault ships.

bd popeye said:

Lets see what the air wing would be..

12 F-35 JSF, 6 V-22 Osprey, 2 EH101(don't know if the USN would go for that)...4 Super Cobras, 4 SH-60R...for ASW & SAR. And of course the troops, about 1,000, and all their assoicated equipment.

[qimg]http://navy-matters.beedall.com/imagesbig/lhar.jpg[/qimg]

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In the Sea Control role, I would expect to see more F-35's. maybe as many as 24, along with an AEW variant of the Osprey (3-4 asicraft), and an ASW variant of the same )6 aircraft), along with 6-8 Seahawks.

In fact, I would like to see an ASW Opsrey variant on the CVNs to replace the Vikings. At least they would have much longer legs than the helos and more weapon capacity than the helos if developed that way. I believe that removing the Vikings from the ASW role was premature...it is what they were designed to do...and to give that type of ASW reach with significant loiter capability and weapon capacity.

Very nice pic, Obi. And thank you for the information! I am not to well versed in the subject of modern military aviation, so I about the only thing I knew about the Harrier was it's superior turn radius that caught the Argies off guard. But, that's about it.

So thanks again

As to the idea of the USN buying the EH101, well your president thinks it's good enough to replace the Sea Kings he uses to hop from the white house lawn to ... well the local supermarket for all I know. As the US101, it almost qualifies as an American chopper now since it is being marketed and developed by Lockheed Martin and it must be good to picked in preference to the latest Sikorsky product. Sikorsky's contribution to the evolution of military and naval helicopters has been second to none, but the Merlin was designed by two of Sikorsky's 'apprentices', Westland Helicopters and Agusta. They learned their craft building licenced copies of Sikorskys designs and managed to equal and even surpass their teacher. The US101 models will be assembled in the states, and the order for the Presidents VIP craft may well lead to more...

Whilst the American military establishment has a long history of being fiercely patriotic, they also recognise a good idea or product when they see it (they weren't slow to buy the Harrier back in 1969, putting them into service before the RAF!) and the Merlin would make a good partner and eventual successor to the SH-60 Sea Hawk, as well as complementing the Osprey.The V-22 is another reason for adding the portside sponson to the basic LHD design, the Osprey's landing 'footprint' is a lot wider than conventional helos and there have been reports of asymmetric thrust on landing and takeoff from the decks of LHAs/LHDs due to one engine being over the ship while the other is over the sea. The starboard engine creates a cushion of air under it as it pushes down against the deck while the port engines exhaust/downdraft is dissipated over the side of the ship. My solution? make the deck wider!

This picture of ospreys on the deck of an LHD illustrates my point. If the deck were extended to the same width as the deck edge lift then operating the V-22 becomes less of a squeeze. An ASW variant of the Osprey (SV-22?) would have the potential to be the best all round ship based ASW platform in the world, combining the speed and range of a fixed wing aircraft (eg a P3 Orion) with the ability to stop, hover, and lower a dipping sonar like a helo. Submarines would never know what hit them!

Nice Ospreys, they are in service?!ff
But one problem: This is about the Harrier, not its mothership.
Just open another thread. (Nice topic anyway.)

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Found this from airwar.ru


Top speed: Mach 1.1
Combat range:
STOL: 2722
VTOL: 277
Payload: 4170kg/3 tonnes in 9 HP

9 HP?! That's rather.............much for such a small plane with small wings........
I can't really imagine loading it with that much stuff. If it isn't VTC controlled, I doubt it can manuver much. And that's a drastical change in range....

I wonder though, can it perform manuvers like those of the Flankers and Fulcrums?