HAL Tejas Jet Fighter

bingo

Junior Member
India and China have different needs.

I don't think HAL Tejas was built response to "J-8", or that "J-10" or "JF-17" had anything to do with HAL Tejas.

HAL Tejas was built to replace Mig-21. Just that.

Similarly, JF-17 was built by China only for Pakistan, using Pakistani funded $500 million.
(otherwise, China never needed to built JF-17).

PLAAF has shown nil interest in JF-17 so far, and is most unlikely to induct it.

Generally, it is seen that people who would go to any length to defend J-10, would never defend JF-17. Only pakistanis defend JF-17. If anyone else buys it, all the better.

I do think JF-17 deserves more respect than it gets, from the people who built it.

Coming back to HAL Tejas, it will run it's own course. India has it's own standards for acceptance testing. IAF requirements are very different from PLAAF.

Just because China claims to have operationalized J-10 ... this is no reason why HAL Tejas squadrons should be inducted in a hurry !!!!

Further, India isn't sanctioned on arms sales, as China is.

In any case, J-10 is not really targeted at India. Primary reason for building J-10 was to build capability for 4th gen aircraft. Capability building is also the reason for WS10A.


J-10 is a good aircraft .... there is hardly a need to be defensive about it.

But I don't see how a J-10 type aircraft meets the needs of IAF.

What role could a J-10 fulfill, for IAF ?

Su30MKI should be good upto 2025 or 2030.

And the next generation of front-line aircraft for IAF would be fifth generation aircraft or an advanced unmanned combat aircraft.

I think India should buy F-18 Super Hornets, among the planes in the running for the MMRCA competition. Not only it boosts Indo-US relations .... it injects the latest technology (that India is currently offered). - F-22 is not offered !

It's costly at USD 58MM, but India could reduce the size from 126 aircraft to 100. But getting the Super Hornet would be nice for the IAF.

China is indeed badly sanctioned .... even Russia hesistates to offer the latest technology .... because of intellectual property issues.

I think China is doing whatever best it can .... reinvent wheels, reverse engineer and put more money into R&D.

India too had to do the same thing for nuclear power technology .... since it was as badly sanctioned, on that front.

------

I wonder, if this post will trigger closure of this thread. :p
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
India and China have different needs.

I don't think HAL Tejas was built response to "J-8", or that "J-10" or "JF-17" had anything to do with HAL Tejas.

HAL Tejas was built to replace Mig-21. Just that.

Similarly, JF-17 was built by China only for Pakistan, using Pakistani funded $500 million.
(otherwise, China never needed to built JF-17).

PLAAF has shown nil interest in JF-17 so far, and is most unlikely to induct it.

Generally, it is seen that people who would go to any length to defend J-10, would never defend JF-17. Only pakistanis defend JF-17. If anyone else buys it, all the better.

I do think JF-17 deserves more respect than it gets, from the people who built it.

Coming back to HAL Tejas, it will run it's own course. India has it's own standards for acceptance testing. IAF requirements are very different from PLAAF.

Just because China claims to have operationalized J-10 ... this is no reason why HAL Tejas squadrons should be inducted in a hurry !!!!

Further, India isn't sanctioned on arms sales, as China is.

In any case, J-10 is not really targeted at India. Primary reason for building J-10 was to build capability for 4th gen aircraft. Capability building is also the reason for WS10A.


J-10 is a good aircraft .... there is hardly a need to be defensive about it.

But I don't see how a J-10 type aircraft meets the needs of IAF.

What role could a J-10 fulfill, for IAF ?

Su30MKI should be good upto 2025 or 2030.

And the next generation of front-line aircraft for IAF would be fifth generation aircraft or an advanced unmanned combat aircraft.

I think India should buy F-18 Super Hornets, among the planes in the running for the MMRCA competition. Not only it boosts Indo-US relations .... it injects the latest technology (that India is currently offered). - F-22 is not offered !

It's costly at USD 58MM, but India could reduce the size from 126 aircraft to 100. But getting the Super Hornet would be nice for the IAF.

China is indeed badly sanctioned .... even Russia hesistates to offer the latest technology .... because of intellectual property issues.

I think China is doing whatever best it can .... reinvent wheels, reverse engineer and put more money into R&D.

India too had to do the same thing for nuclear power technology .... since it was as badly sanctioned, on that front.

------

I wonder, if this post will trigger closure of this thread. :p

First I didn't say that the LCA is built in response to J-8. J-8 is a twin engined third gen interceptor while LCA is a lightweight 4th gen fighter and thus the two fulfill vastly different needs. What I tried to emphasis is how difficult it was for the two developing nations, China and India, to develop their premier jet fighters.

I am not being defensive about J-10. I think it is silly to get overly excited about such things. LCA may fullfill India's needs for now but I am still unsure of its upgrading potentials, given its small size and combat radius. India should move on to better things and not get bogged down too much by the LCA, which is great for helping the Indian airforce eliminate the aging 3rd gen fighters. China has wasted her time with the J-8 and now we are left with a dozen J-8 variants. Hopefully India won't follow the example.

As long as we are civil about the discussion there is no risk of thread closure.
 

bingo

Junior Member
I agree entirely, with your post above.

I have a really side question ..... do people living inside PRC have access to this forum ?

(reading all this ... or even posting comments here ?)

It's in English Language is a natural limitation .... because very few people inside PRC would understand.
 

lcloo

Captain
I am in PRC right now, I have no problem accessing and posting. This actually is a credit to the high standard and neutral stand of this forum and the mods.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I am in PRC right now, I have no problem accessing and posting. This actually is a credit to the high standard and neutral stand of this forum and the mods.

Full hearted agreement from me. This must be the only place on the internet where American patriots and Chinese patriots could coexist. All hail the Sinodefence forum!
 

lcloo

Captain
F-16 started out as a light weight cheap daylight fighter, but it has been transformed to a much heavier plane and is all weather capable.

The experience gained from LCA should help the Indian in building better planes in future. They can apply the lessons of the evolution of F-16 on next generation LCA.

It is hard to build your first one, but once you master it, the second one can be done much easier.
 

clone7803

New Member
Technically India has already built 10 operational planes (6 prototypes and 4 will enter service). However as you said India already spent too long (since 1975) and too much money (over 1 billion dollars) on this program and we must keep in mind that fighter capabilities have increased a great deal during this time period. It almost seems as if the LCA is India's answer to China's troubled J-8 which was already behind, technologically, when it was on the drawing board and required major modifications. Instead of investing too much on the LCAs I think India should use the valuable knowledge gained during the thirty year period to produce its version of "J-10".

It's not J8 but from J7 or Mig21 that China mastered the basic techs to build a fighter.China spent almost 30 years( from the end of 1950s to middle or later 1980s) to know how to make a Mig21 like fighter and its engin(of course not a turbfan one).The graduate cemony of China's fighter industry is to export the J7P to Pakistani air force.Then from this point China slowly improved its techs to get the later J10 and J11s and the near future JXX.The Indian's problem is,they had never put so much effort to learn how to build a fighter and its engin.They directlly jumped from A to D. So from the technical view I can understand that they will have a lot of problems.The LCA some how is a mix of J7 and J10 to them.They have to learn how to make fighter and make some innovation from the LCA at the same time.That's not an easy task.
 

bingo

Junior Member
They directlly jumped from A to D.

Actually, jumping from B to D is more appropriate.

India built the 1st gen HAL Ajeet, and 2nd gen HAL HF-24 Marut.

HF-24 Marut was capable of Mach 2, but sufficiently powerful engine could not be developed or imported .... .so it remained underpowered.

India didn't make any 3rd gen aircraft, and moved directly to 4th gen LCA Tejas.

One of the key reasons could be that India had access to Soviet Mig-21s.

China at that time (post 1959) had access to neither Soviet nor western planes.

But China did benefit from a really heavy dosage of Soviet technologies upto 1959 (... and that included technologies about everything, not just aircraft).

Upto 1959 China got a huge amount of raw material for reverse engineering.

India never got that kind of a dosage from anywhere. Formal transfer of technology agreement / license manufacturing was there from time to time .... and it's different from what Soviet Union did for China upto 1959.

The only thing I have known India to extensively reverse engineer are pharmaceuticals. Nothing else !

Off course, I don't mean that reverse engineering is anything bad. Actually, I see it as a positive.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Wikipedia is one of the worst places to get reliable data on most things. It provides decent descriptions and overviews on concepts and ideas, but any detail, especially still classified ones, are utterly unreliable as anyone can got post whatever the hell figure they want.

If you think the J10 is underpowered, then just have a look at its take-off stunt at the Zuhai Airshow.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
I believe that the original topic about HAL Tejas's Cost Vs Performance thing is more or less finished.

Now this thread, if it proceeds, is going to talk about unrelated issues (and off course, I have no issues with that).

Actually, J-10 data needs revision:

As per wikipedia (which many people here don't trust) ... still:

Loaded Weight = 18,500 kg
Empty Weight = 8,850 kg (average of the range given on wikipedia).

As a formula I have used, Useful Weight = Loaded Weight - Empty Weight
(for all aircraft)

However, for J-10, another figure called "Useful weight" is quoted in wikipedia as 6000 kg.

So, possibly useful weight of J-10 is not 9650 kg, but 6000 kg, and it will then lie between Eurofighter and Sukhoi30MKI.

18.5 tons is quite a heavy aircraft to run on a single engine even though the engine used - AL31FN is quite a large engine (much larger than eurofighter's engines).

The empty weight of J-10 (= 8850 kg) is quite comparable to other single engined aircraft (One less engine does save weight !). But to carry a loaded weight of 18.5 tons, I think J-10 was better designed as a twin-engined aircraft.

I am beginning to suspect that J-10 could be underpowered with it's single engine.
(And this is a great statement to invite flaming and lead to closure of this thread).

Don't ever take Wikipedia's numbers for its face value, but that doesn't mean it's useless. What you should do is to use wikipedia to check where that number comes from. For example, the 6000kg number, quoted from citation #35, comes from a Global Times article. The actual quote is from the deputy commander of the Chinese Airforce He Weirong:

"J-10's max weapon load is up to six tons with 11 pylons and its shortest take-off distance is only 350 meters," he said.

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Note that the 6000kg is actually the weapons load, not useful load.

EDIT: With that said, I'm gonna edit Wikipedia right now to reflect the difference.....Arg, or not, dunno why it wouldn't show up.
 
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