HAL Tejas Jet Fighter

Re: Hal tejas

I believe Tejas is comparable to JF-17 (aka FC-1) in size and performance, comparing the prices JF-17 is much cheaper at around US15 million (price may change if customers picked different avionics).

JF-17 also has the head start in show case in Fanborough, and may already have started some sale negotiations. Egypt and Turkey, and a few other third world countries have shown interest. The attractive points are cheap price, good aviionic and performance (according to Pakistani pilots who previously flow the PAF F-16), and no political sanction from China.

Tejas is not yet proven in service, but upon maturity should prove a good replacement for Indian airforce MIG-21, MIG-23 and Jaguar, at least in logistic.

Export wise it may face some problems, possible sanction from US is but one of many. price is another, of course it has to face competition from JF-17 as well.

Re: Hal tejas

lcloo said:

I believe Tejas is comparable to JF-17 (aka FC-1) in size and performance, comparing the prices JF-17 is much cheaper at around US15 million (price may change if customers picked different avionics).

JF-17 also has the head start in show case in Fanborough, and may already have started some sale negotiations. Egypt and Turkey, and a few other third world countries have shown interest. The attractive points are cheap price, good aviionic and performance (according to Pakistani pilots who previously flow the PAF F-16), and no political sanction from China.

Tejas is not yet proven in service, but upon maturity should prove a good replacement for Indian airforce MIG-21, MIG-23 and Jaguar, at least in logistic.

Export wise it may face some problems, possible sanction from US is but one of many. price is another, of course it has to face competition from JF-17 as well.

Click to expand...

Let's not drag JF-17 into picture. We shall just continue talking about LCA only.

I too believe its a good start for India aviation but to replace bulk of India airforce and even gaining export sounds not very positive. I believe LCA is a essential experience for them to design a better plane in future. Without LCA, India aviation will never mature.

Re: Hal tejas

bingo said:

I don't think HAL Tejas is doing too bad.

10 planes are flying in the air. (No crash at all, thus far).

Tejas proved successful on all tests (except for engine thrust required at sea-level - which is why a larger engine is sought). AoA upto 22-24 degrees is done successfully. AoA of 28 degress is under testing.

In case of a blockade from US for GE engines, Kaveri could still potentially be used on Tejas. (Similar to China, which has problems with WS10A in it's process of replacing Russian AL31FN engines for J-10 -- WS10A offers a safeguard to China, vis-a-vis Russia).

True, Tejas has to compete against other western fighters. China's J-10 has no competition from western fighters, which are not offered. Hence, J-10 is an obvious choice for PLAAF, good or bad.

But Tejas is not going too badly against those western fighters .... in terms of cost atleast. Tejas costs USD 21M against Super Hornet F-18 which costs USD 58M.

So, roughly 3 Tejas = 1 Super Hornet F-18.

Tejas is indeed meant to solve the numbers problem for IAF. Mig-21 will be replaced in bulk over the next 5-8 years.

J-10 is a good output from China .. in that it's the only 4th gen plane China has put up in the air (even though, it uses a Russian engine as it's most reliable powerplant).

Both India and China do need western technology inputs.. rather than try to re-invent the wheel. Eventually, both will make planes which are comparable to western planes.

But, it's also possible by the time India / China produce western standard planes .. those planes would cost similar to western planes.

So, as we improve the capability .... cost-wise the new planes won't come cheap.

(J-10 costs USD 28 million; HAL Tejas costs USD 21 Million) as per wikipedia.

Click to expand...

The J-10 is already comparable to Western planes. The F-16C/D Block 50 comes to mind. I also think that the HAL Tejas is more comparable to the JF-17 in terms of size and capability rather than to either the J-10 or the F-16, which are both more advanced and more capable, Indian claims of the Tejas being a "4+" generation aircraft notwithstanding.

Re: Hal tejas

ZTZ99 said:

The J-10 is already comparable to Western planes. The F-16C/D Block 50 comes to mind. I also think that the HAL Tejas is more comparable to the JF-17 in terms of size and capability rather than to either the J-10 or the F-16, which are both more advanced and more capable, Indian claims (? - Su30MKI is "4+", not Tejas) of the Tejas being a "4+" generation aircraft notwithstanding.

Click to expand...

The point of comparison with J-10 is only one: It was built around a foreign engine. But China is also working on making WS10A, so that the need for AL31FN is eliminated.

Same is true for HAL Tejas -> Built around GE404, but India is working on an indigenous engine, as an alternative.

Actually, JF-17 also uses a Russian engine.... and again, an indigenous engine is being build.

On just that point: J-10, HAL Tejas and JF-17 stand on the same footing.

India and China both found developing the aircraft engine to be a bigger challenge than developing the plane itself.

Possibly, it can be said that WS10A is further up the curve ..... It has actually been flown in the air. (However, a couple crashes happened, which are attributed to this engine).

Kaveri engine has not been flown in the air, with the Tejas. (Hence, no crashes either). It has passed one of the two "milestones", before it can be declared flight-worthy. (It failed on high-altitude tests in 2004, but passed the same last year). A total of 8 complete engines have been built and being used for simultaneous testing.

-----

Another comparison I did was on price:

4.5 Gen (as per wikipedia)
Super Hornet F-18 = USD 58 million

4 Gen (as per wikipedia)
J-10 = USD 28 million
Tejas = USD 21 million
JF-17 = USD 15 million


1. HAL Tejas is in between J-10 and JF-17 on costs.
2. All three are 4th Gen aircrafts.

Cost Vs Performance characteristics of the three are of the same order.
If you compute these characteristics to the decimal value precisions .... sure it will be different for the three aircraft. But the values will be in the same order of magnitude.

HAL Tejas is no better and no worse than the other two.

The comparison ends there.



HAL Tejas is not going be the front-line fighter for IAF. It is just to replace the current Mig-21.

JF-17 and J-10 are fine aircraft in their own right. But any reference to them in this thread only for illustration.

Re: Hal tejas

The recent "couple of crashes" had nothing to do with this engine, but with AL31FN.

Re: Hal tejas

Ok. Forget J-10 crashes (whatever the reason) --- I read somewhere that engine was the probably reason. It AL31N is the reason, I have no issues accepting that.

The point is that aircraft engine development is a difficult job.

Hal Tejas should not be damned just because Kaveri engine is still going to take some more years to develop ..... or that Tejas has to make do with a GE engine, for now.

Atleast, initial J-10 planes also used a foreign engine.

JF-17 still uses a foreign engine.

Even, Sweden can't make an aircraft engine. Gripen also uses foreign engine.

So, what's wrong if HAL Tejas uses it.

China also faced issues with WS10A (or maybe some issues are still being addressed).
It's a bigger engine is also understood (so, possibly more difficult). But it's also not custom built (it's reverse engineered from AL31FN ---- so, it was known pre-hand that WS10A design will eventually work out). Kaveri engine has no working copy to look at.

Re: Hal tejas

bingo said:

Ok. Forget J-10 crashes (whatever the reason) --- I read somewhere that engine was the probably reason. It AL31N is the reason, I have no issues accepting that.

The point is that aircraft engine development is a difficult job.

Hal Tejas should not be damned just because Kaveri engine is still going to take some more years to develop ..... or that Tejas has to make do with a GE engine, for now.

Atleast, initial J-10 planes also used a foreign engine.

JF-17 still uses a foreign engine.

Even, Sweden can't make an aircraft engine. Gripen also uses foreign engine.

So, what's wrong if HAL Tejas uses it.

China also faced issues with WS10A (or maybe some issues are still being addressed).
It's a bigger engine is also understood (so, possibly more difficult). But it's also not custom built (it's reverse engineered from AL31FN ---- so, it was known pre-hand that WS10A design will eventually work out). Kaveri engine has no working copy to look at.

Click to expand...

The WS-10 family is not based on the Al-31 at all, the core of the WS-10 dates back to a design begun in the 1980's.

Re: Hal tejas

bingo said:

Su30MKI is "4+", not Tejas

Click to expand...

There is absolutely nothing about the Su-30MKI that makes it 4+ generation. It is a straight up 4th generation aircraft, not comparable in technology to any of the Eurocanards. The Su-35 and the Mig-35 are the only Russian aircraft that could possibly fit into the 4+ generation category, and India possesses neither of those.

bingo said:

It's a bigger engine is also understood (so, possibly more difficult). But it's also not custom built (it's reverse engineered from AL31FN ---- so, it was known pre-hand that WS10A design will eventually work out). Kaveri engine has no working copy to look at.

Click to expand...

As monty said, the WS10A has nothing to do with the AL31 series engine. It was developed from the ground up based on the CFM56 engine core. Whether or not the Kaveri is completely indigenous pales to the fact that the technological level of the engine is already decades old and getting older by the day. It is also not a heavy thrust engine like either the WS10A or the AL31F, but a medium thrust engine like the ones that power Mig-29's or F-18's.

Re: Hal tejas

ZTZ99 said:

There is absolutely nothing about the Su-30MKI that makes it 4+ generation. It is a straight up 4th generation aircraft, not comparable in technology to any of the Eurocanards. The Su-35 and the Mig-35 are the only Russian aircraft that could possibly fit into the 4+ generation category, and India possesses neither of those.

Click to expand...

I quoted the source:


I you disagree with the source, It's fine with me.

The topic is not about Su30MKI.

But wikipedia (same link as above), lists HAL Tejas, J-10 and JF-17 as 4th Gen Aircraft.

As monty said, the WS10A has nothing to do with the AL31 series engine. It was developed from the ground up based on the CFM56 engine core. Whether or not the Kaveri is completely indigenous pales to the fact that the technological level of the engine is already decades old and getting older by the day. It is also not a heavy thrust engine like either the WS10A or the AL31F, but a medium thrust engine like the ones that power Mig-29's or F-18's.

Click to expand...

I'll agree with whatever you say about WS10A.
In fact, wikipedia corroborates the above. So, I'm fine.

But again, the topic is not about Kaveri or WS10A.


It's about HAL Tejas ..... and the fact that it uses a foreign engine, is quite okay, to start with. Everybody does it.

Re: Hal tejas

It's about HAL Tejas ..... and the fact that it uses a foreign engine, is quite okay, to start with. Everybody does it.

Click to expand...

I think you are right in this, because the US is not likely to pull the plug on Indian projects, and anyway, India has a lot of insurance against this. If the US says no, there are plenty who would step in and take their place: Russia or France, for example. In fact, if India were to become estranged from the US, maybe even China would offer such help!