H-6 Bomber Aircraft Discussions

Re: H-6 bomber thread

hmm, well is the innermost pylon on the real plane positioned between the engine and the landing gear or just after the landing gear, like in this alleged pic?

Also, i hope this is a PS job if for no other reason than because it's sad to see that rear turret cabin still stuck on all models. must be very integral to fuselage and hard to remove.

Re: H-6 bomber thread

Here's the original picture !

Deino

Re: H-6 bomber thread

tphuang said:

yes, is there something wrong? I thought huitong also mentionned that in his summary. According to the guy posting in the thread, China did consider replacing 2 WP-8 with 4 WS-9, but there was too much changes required. Whereas with D-30KP, you still use 2 engines and the dimensions are relatively close, so that's why it was chosen, btw, interesting enough, this was already done in June of 2005.

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Sorry, but as I don't speak/read Chinese ... I never found any info about an effort to re-engine the H-6 with 4 WS-9. I remember the H-6I-project during the 1970s, but these were Spey-512's civil versions and not the Spey from the Phantom II ... additional this was much earlier with an first flight 1977/78.

The only thing that still makes me the most curious is the question – is this a „re-fit“ with the new engines and therefore an option for „older“ versions like the H-6Hand M or de facto a new.-build version ???

Additional Your note from the translation:

tphuang said:

…. this one says 20000 XAC employee waited 13 years for this moment and the first flight is successful. It's hard to comprehend that 13 years is required to modify H-6 to use new engines and such. Maybe there is another bomber coming out?

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Not that I expect a completely new bomber design related to the other first-flight date, but could it be that this is not the first prototype, but the first “serial” machine ???

Keeping in mind that most H-6 prototypes were at first unmarked – often in yellow primer – and never armed up to their teeth, I just wonder a bit why here a first flight should have occurred with a fully “armed” aircraft … or at least with mock-up weapons !

Ohh, what a wonderful time of secrets ….

Deino

Re: H-6 bomber thread

Deino said:

Sorry, but as I don't speak/read Chinese ... I never found any info about an effort to re-engine the H-6 with 4 WS-9. I remember the H-6I-project during the 1970s, but these were Spey-512's civil versions and not the Spey from the Phantom II ... additional this was much earlier with an first flight 1977/78.

The only thing that still makes me the most curious is the question – is this a „re-fit“ with the new engines and therefore an option for „older“ versions like the H-6Hand M or de facto a new.-build version ???

Additional Your note from the translation:



Not that I expect a completely new bomber design related to the other first-flight date, but could it be that this is not the first prototype, but the first “serial” machine ???

Keeping in mind that most H-6 prototypes were at first unmarked – often in yellow primer – and never armed up to their teeth, I just wonder a bit why here a first flight should have occurred with a fully “armed” aircraft … or at least with mock-up weapons !

Ohh, what a wonderful time of secrets ….

Deino

Click to expand...

The guy that revealed H-6 getting D-30KP engines in 2005 also posted that China at an earlier time studied the feasibility of using 4 Spey engines, but found that the improvement in performance wasn't significant enough to justify the move.

Just on the latter point, this is posted on Chinese forums, this is supposedly the 10 top items of 2006.
再来看这个:
2006年度西飞十大新闻
发布日期：

一、西飞集团公司全面实现年度科研生产经营目标，各项经营指标再创历史新高，全年销售收入超过71亿元。
　二、西飞大力推进组织变革，完成了13个部、办、中心的重组，并按新的模式和流程运作。党群系统组织变革工作启动。西飞国际完成股权分置改革。
　　三、新机研制工作进展顺利。某重点型号研制完成年度计划，达到首飞状态。ARJ21新支线飞机各大项目研制提前实现节点目标。 [/]
- This is the important news, there is a new plane in development, and the development is sucessful, a major model has finished designing in the year end, is ready for first flight. Then, it talks about ARJ-21's major parts are realizing goals. What I think is that the one about the 13 years is talking about this ticket item.

　　四、新舟60市场销售取得重大突破，与印尼鸽航签订了西飞发展史上最大的一笔自营出口合同，获得了15架新舟60飞机订单。截止目前，新舟60飞机共签订销售合同67架、协议订单30架。
　　五、西飞转包生产快速增长，波音747客改货Ⅱ、Ⅲ阶段项目实现首架交付，波音737-700垂尾月交付量达到17架份，全年转包生产出口创汇额首次突破5000万美元。
　　六、11月8日，西飞通过中国一航6S管理铜牌验收，标志着西飞一流环境建设跃上了一个新台阶。西飞环境/职业健康安全管理体系全面试运行。
　　七、西飞全面推进七项新管理应用，“一把手创新工程”全年立项实施179个，管理创新工作成效显著。
　　八、大型机翼壁板喷丸成形和自动钻铆技术攻关课题取得突破，飞机研制的核心能力进一步提升。西沃自主研发的豪华中档客车——西沃880和990投放市场。
　　九、企业文化建设持续走向深入，《西飞纲领》完成起草即将颁布；修订VI手册，《员工文化手册》颁布实施；公司出台并实施员工职业发展与绩效考核管理暂行办法。
　　十、新建单身公寓交付使用，560名单身职工喜迁新居。新建两栋小高层、10栋多层住宅楼竣工交付，504户职工搬入新房，职工住房条件进一步改善。
西飞集团报

Re: H-6 bomber thread

:china:

附：2007年1月5日14时55分，随着某重点型号飞机腾空而起，这一刻成为载入西飞、乃至中国飞机发展史册的一个永恒的瞬间。2万多西飞人13年的期盼凝聚在这一刻：某重点型号飞机首飞圆满成功！
　　掌声与鲜花、笑语与自豪装点着冬日暖阳照耀下的机场。中央军委首长、空军装备部首长、国防科工委领导、陕西省委副秘书长、西安市副市长、中国一航、中航二集团等单位领导与数百名西飞参研人员共同见证了这激动的时刻。
　　14时50分，随着首飞仪式主持人、中国一航副总经理李玉海宣布：“首飞开始！”。银灰色的某重点型号自西向东，穿过观礼台，缓缓滑向跑道。随着优美的滑跑，在一阵轰鸣声中，飞机昂首直刺蓝天，在观礼台前腾空而起！顿时，全场掌声雷动。人们仰首目送着飞机矫健的身姿融入在碧空之中……
　　15时06分，飞机再次进入人们的视线，打出的一串彩色信号弹在空中散开、飞舞，飞机开始通场飞行，如潮的掌声再次响起，激动、自豪洋溢在人们的脸上。
　　15时15分，飞机打开两个白色阻力伞，平稳着陆，减速滑行。经过蓝天洗礼后格外雄壮的飞机，稳稳停在观礼台前方。至此，某重点型号首飞圆满成功！现场的领导兴致勃勃登上英姿勃发的某重点型号飞机，与机组人员亲切握手、合影留念。
　　首飞仪式后，西飞集团公司总裁高大成汇报了某重点型号研制过程和体会。中央军委首长、国防科工委领导在发言中充分肯定了某重点型号研制的重大意义与前期的工作情况，对后续工作提出了希望与要求。一航副总经理李玉海代表西飞以及各参研单位做了表态发言。
我判断1月5日首飞的是轰九战略轰炸机。理由如下：
1.“中央军委首长、、空军装备部首长、国防科工委领导、陕西省委副秘书长、西安市副市长、中国一航、中航二集团等单位领导”参加的首飞必须是重量级的重点项目，再加上“这一刻成为载入西飞、乃至中国飞机发展史册的一个永恒的瞬间。2万多西飞人13年的期盼凝聚在这一刻：某重点型号飞机首飞圆满成功”。大家请注意中国飞机发展史册的永恒。可想而知它的分量有多重。那末我们看看哪些飞机有这个重量：
1.轰六改：显然旧瓶装新酒承受不了中国飞机发展史册的一个永恒的瞬间。2万多西飞人期盼13年的这一刻，如果是轰六改的话，那西飞早就没有存在下去的必要了。
2.歼轰七改：也肯定不是。
3.肯定讲首先是一架新机。是不是大家说的飞豹III或者歼轰八呢？13年前立项研制，就是94年，那个时候飞豹还没有定型，就开始研究飞豹III，歼轰八。我觉得不太现实吧。所以我们肯定讲决不是歼轰机（海军没有派人），也不是电战机，而是新轰——轰九战略轰炸机。只有它才能当之无愧的承受本文开始时的那些殊荣。请看06年12月份某红军论坛下面的一个帖子（摘）：
“轰-9战略轰炸机:轰-9在95年立项开始预研。该机在无空中加油的情况下，航程可超过8000公里，有空中加油的情况航程超过12000公里。该机巡航速度可达2M，突防速度可达到超过4M，载弹量20吨-40吨。该机还有更好的隐身性能。发动机是四台由624所研制的涡扇15A发动机，最大推力为17600公斤。”
我们想想95年预研，07年首飞，刚好是12年，和前面八股说的13年差不多。即使07年首飞，要定型量产最起码需要8年，也就是说列装空军也是2015年以后的事了。（歼10 是98年首飞，05年定型列装。F35是06年首飞，2012年量产；而轰炸机更复杂，所以要8年定型差不多吧）。
再看下面这个帖子：

“西安飞机第一设计院603所和沈飞正在联合发展研制最新一代的双座歼击战略轰炸机，该轰炸机航程可达7000公里。该项目2004年立项，2005年一月中央军委副主席郭伯雄亲自视察，对该型号研制方面取得的成绩充分肯定并高度评价。这种轰炸机高度机密，中国航空第一集团内部军方视察录像显示，新一代并列双座轰炸机的模型开始风洞结构试验。
军方一直对双座歼击战略轰炸机有浓厚兴趣，这种飞机集歼击首先轰炸和战略轰炸于一身，用于实施对海上和地面目标打击，其次是用于空中格斗，因而同时具备了歼轰7-A战斗机的战术格斗性能和轰六轰炸机的远程对海上和地面目标打击能力。
歼轰八战略轰炸机设计要求为驾驶舱可容纳两名驾驶员并坐，采用两台装有矢量喷嘴和加力燃烧AL―31F发动机国产型，具备战略轰炸能力。经一次空中加油的航程达到7000公里，安装有后视雷达和多功能相控阵雷达，可以携带国产先进空对空、空对地导弹。歼轰八并未采用前置鸭翼，这和苏―32截然不同，巨大的扁平机头，机身机翼菱形融合，减少雷达横截面，类似美国的F18E/F大黄蜂。装备新型国产无源相控阵雷达，可发现和同时跟踪X个空中目标，并同时引导空空导弹攻击其中Y个，具有导航／攻击、地形跟随和地形回避模式，发现驱逐舰类目标的距离为135千米，发现歼击机类目标的距离为120千米。最大航程4000公里，经空中加油后可达7000公里。设计要求有15个外挂点，可装载8吨武器。能够携带包括各种先进导弹、激光制导炸弹，以及各种火箭和集束炸弹等。“

大家看到了，歼轰八2004年立项，我认为是可靠的。因为2003年歼轰七A列装空军，而歼11B也是同年定型的，说明601所终于吃透了苏27的技术；而603所通过飞豹A的研发也使技术上了一个层次。这个时候将苏27重型战机和飞豹A的技术整合起来研制中程战术轰炸机就水到渠成。两所合作也合乎清理。这叫1加1大于2。所以这个帖子我觉得有道理。但04年立项，估计研发成功也是2015年的事了。

look at this article,it is more detail than all the post of above.
I am not sure this article is true or not.
it's oppinion is what you guy talking about should be new long range bomber -H9.
this report is from internet,I have no idea, can aney body discuss this?

Re: H-6 bomber thread

Totoro said:

is it me or do the missiles on that thing look nothing like yj-8 series? I fail to see the midbody wings, plus their overall size seems slightly off.
Also, I see no underbelly missile - and if we're talking about wingless missiles being mounted in the weapons bay - there could be space for more than one.

Even more curiously, doesn't the shape of the intake look different than on some h-6 pics we've seen? look at some old h-6 pics and compare. On old ones its more of an oval shape, here its an oval that has been squished from the top.

Finally, IF indeed the plane has been modified to have newer turbofans, been made ligther with composites, has a new, bigger radar and the ability to carry 6,7 or more cruise missiles - that is quite enough for china today. Not to say they should not develop true next gen bomber, but with little money and little development time they have acquired a fairly efficient missile carrying platform.

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H-6K more like stop gap,or temporary solution,since Russia refuse to release "backfire' bomber.the only solution left for a long range maritime strike aircraft was H-6,despite it's age, there's no alternative but to prolong her service.

Re: H-6 bomber thread

looks like we finally got some closure on which was the plane taking off on December 15th of 2006.

为了这一刻--泰岭发动机生产定型 即将批量装备部队


12月15日，试飞院机场飞机的轰鸣声此起彼伏，一架架战鹰起起落落，呈现出一片大干百天、努力完成重点型号任务的火热场景。下午13时32分，某型飞机在阎良机场安全着陆，这一时刻，标志着秦岭发动机生产定型试飞工作全面完成，而这同时也就意味着我国首次生产的大推力涡扇发动机即将可以批量装备部队，形成战斗力！

你可知道，为了这一天的早日到来，试飞院所有参与此型号任务的人员是付出了怎样的艰辛劳动？课题组为了每一天的试飞任务能“有章可循、有法可依”，他们在试飞前精心编写试飞技术文件，协调任务时给试飞员认真解读并与试飞员深入讨论，试飞完成后在第一时间处理分析数据，为的是与时间赛跑、保证第二天的飞行更安全高效；测试人员在每次试飞前一遍又一遍细心地检查测试记录设备，为了保证飞行架次的百分之百有效，在地面检查发现故障后，夜以继日地工作排除故障，为的是试飞工作不晚点；机务人员协助课题和测试做好每一次地面试验，不论是早六点还是晚八点，他们都毫无怨言，每次飞行前都尽职尽责地将自己的工作做好、以保证飞行的万无一失。

由于在生产定型第二阶段承担此任务的飞机同时还承担着另一个重点课题的试飞，而为了全盘考虑，上级曾经决定准备在另一个课题紧张的时候，要求他们的发动机试飞课题转移到另一架飞机上进行，而另一架飞机再有十几个飞行小时就要进行周期较长的400小时定检，这无疑会使该发动机的生产定型试飞工作滞后，为了使发动机试飞工作能在当前这架飞机上顺利完成，课题组在型号总师刘志彬的带领下，在他们每天的试飞计划任务总是排在次要或者是作为备份的情况下，利用一切可能，见缝插针，在另一个课题因故无法实施的情况下，他们的试飞计划因为事先有充分的准备而得以顺利实施。他们就是在这样的情况下，优质并提前完成了秦岭发动机的生产定型试飞工作。

试飞工作进行到后期，因为小速度边界加力接通结果不理想，而这一试飞结果将直接关系到发动机高空操作限制数据以及飞行手册的编写，所以即要谨慎又要不浪费一个可飞机会。每次进场飞行归来，试飞院发动机所课题组申晓霞、田利锋、原博等同志及时处理数据并进行分析，然后挑灯夜战，与总师、厂家跟飞技术人员一起讨论第二天的试飞计划是否需要更改、怎样的试飞方案更有效可行。课题组成员都是承担几项课题的科研骨干，除了要保证此项任务外，还要处理自己负责的其它课题的工作。也就是在这样紧张忙碌的试飞工作中，型号总师刘志彬累倒了，旧病复发，在生病的头一两天，他还想着输几瓶液体即可回到工作岗位，但他的这种奢望很快因病情严重而被医生阻止了，于是病房成了讨论问题、分析问题的“临时办公室”。

在最后的攻关阶段，课题组成员更是付出了艰辛的劳动。由于季节原因，每次飞行都在下午进行，课题组看到预处理数据已是下午下班前后，而为了不耽搁时间，课题组申晓霞等同志每天这个时间都坚守在办公室，在数据一传送来即刻进行处理分析，绘制测试参数时间历程、挑选试验数据段、分析试验结果，将成功试验点与失败试验点进行对比分析，然后将所有分析的结果带到总师的“临时办公室”，与总师及跟飞人员一起商讨并确定第二天的试飞方案，等到工作结束回家吃晚饭，已经是万家灯火的八、九点了。

为了响应集团公司大干百天的号召，为了秦岭发动机早日批量装备部队，试飞院型号办、发动机所等单位的参试人员付出了艰辛的劳动，但他们是充实的、欣慰的，也是快乐的。

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This one talks about WS-9 powered aircraft taking off. I think that means either WS-9 was not certified in 2004 as many people thought or that a new and improved version of WS-9 came out.

Re: Question regarding the future of the H-6 bomber

crobato said:

Not counting Chinese service, the Tu-16 Badger is also one long lived bomber. It lasted from the early fifties right to the dissolution of the Soviet Union and then some years after until the post SU military budget can no longer support them.

Being a medium bomber, it's not the best bomber for carpet bombing however, not unlike heavy bombers like the B-52 or Tu-95.

It is unfortunate the PLAAF never had the Tu-95. They would have enjoyed the benefits of this versatile bomber.

Contrary to what most people or common opinion would expect, I think what China needs more now is a versatile bomber that has lots of loiter time as against a strike or multirole fighter bomber. China already has the JH-7A and Su-30s to play that role. While the Su-34 is one sexy aircraft, it won't offer anymore more than what a JH-7A or Su-30 could do. I don't think Su-24 or Tu-22/22M would do it either.

A bomber with lots of loiter time is what you need for a plane that can double as a maritime patrol aircraft, ship and sub hunter, standoff missile launcher, recon, ELINT/EW, or even an AWACS. To put it in perspective, the fact that China decided to revive and restart the manufacturing of such an old design like the Tu-16 tells you that much more modern designs cannot fill the loiter role successfully. Even then, that China took the step of converting the An-12/Y-8 design into loiter intensive roles tell you that even the H-6 is still somewhat marginal for roles requring maximum loiter time. I won't be surprised to see Y-8s turned into anti shipping aircraft or even gunships.

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there's a concept drawing on the Y-8 as a gun ship i can show you the pictures if you guys wanna see it. It is very similar to the AC130 gunship

Re: Question regarding the future of the H-6 bomber

yifyif said:

there's a concept drawing on the Y-8 as a gun ship i can show you the pictures if you guys wanna see it. It is very similar to the AC130 gunship

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Concept or CG? Come on, show it if you have one!

Re: H-6 bomber thread

not worth your time. It's just some fan art.

Let me describe it to you:

it has a type 730 CIWS and a high caliber gun, plus various MLRs.