H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

ACuriousPLAFan

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I recalled one of the Guancha Trios' podcast on what China's next-generation bomber (i.e. H-20) would be like, which was right after that brief interview of the Hong Kong journalist with the Vice Commander of the PLAAF Wang Wei in March 2024.

They've discussed a lot of things in that podcast, however one of the things that stood out is the specific mentions (more like stressing) that the H-20 shouldn't be viewed as "Weapons Destined for Decisive Battle" (决战兵器). If anything, the H-20 would be just one of the many war-fighting platforms that will be made available at China's disposal in the coming years, which includes conventional land-attack and anti-ship missions during wartime, alongside conducting deterrence patrols around Japan or near Alaska during peacetime.

That is, the H-20 will never be a platform that will never see the light of day until doomsday - Because China already have ICBMs (and possibly even FOBS).

That means that all mentions or claims that the H-20 is some kind of suborbital craft or even Tengyun spacecraft is outright moot. So, please pipe down the outrageous enthusiasm on the H-20.
 
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Deino

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..
That means that all mentions or claims that the H-20 is some kind of suborbital craft or even Tengyun spacecraft is outright moot. So, please pipe down the outrageous enthusiasm on the H-20.

Exacly my point and therefore PLEASE stick to the facts and realistic options and don‘t make this thread to a wishful-thinking theoretical discussion. This can be done in a separate thread!
 

ying1978

New Member
That is, the H-20 will never be a platform that will never see the light of day until doomsday - Because China already have ICBMs (and possibly even FOBS).

This is also the way I viewed the H-20. Modern strategic bombers, being part of the nuclear triad, is primarily a weapon of deterrence. Survivability and range are the most important attributes to achieve creditable deterrence, but it should also be conspicuous to leave a lasting impression on the target audience. The issue with ICBMs is that while they have the survivability and range to complete their tasks, they are also very much inconspicuous. Although ICBMs are effective in deterring the decision makers of our adversaries from making a wrong move, they are ineffective in deterring the politicians and public opinion of our adversaries from drumming up belligerence towards us.

Strategic bombers, on the other hand, can achieve what the PLAN’s recent voyage around Australia has achieved. On top of a low observable design to ensure survivability, the H-20 should have sufficient range to reach at least within 1500 km of the US mainland (with in-flight refueling) to launch ALBMs against intended targets. With weapons swapped out for fuel and transpass / refueling over Russia, it should ideally have the range to stay aloft along America’s West Coast to demonstrate our capabilities during peace time.
 

pokepara

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What is the reason why the B21 or H20 production lines cannot be replicated? price? Industrial equipment? engineer? China and the United States have their own industrial machine production capabilities and sufficient engineers.
There is no answer other than price. So what’s to stop China/US from replicating 10 bomber factories after mobilization?

I think the difference between us is that we have different views on national power in peacetime and wartime.
Important effect?
The question now is: If a nuclear country launches a general war but cannot achieve final victory, what is the purpose of launching a general war?
And precision bombing against the homeland will eventually prove to be meaningless.
For example, if B21 throws a cruise missile to attack Dalian, then China will use a conventional warhead ICBM to attack Los Angeles. What could this mean? The new Russian roulette?
Before the nuclear warhead falls, it cannot prevent the H20 made in China or the B21 made in the United States from continuing to cause harm. But the outcome of the war will not change.


The army does not consider profits, but wins the war. The 1.6% military expenditure means that the military has no plan to enter the next war, especially a war with the world's number one. If 1.6% of military expenditure continues for decades (calculated based on the update time of the various weapons you discussed), it can only be said that the goal of the military is very clear: we update all our weapons as planned, but we do not plan to enter a full-scale war immediately
Not commenting on the H20, but using percent of GDP is not a good indicator, especially wrt to China. They use MPS (which might have been a good indicator) but they convert to SNA-compliant GDP pretty conservatively, and SNA is dumb as hell despite being the international standard due to it being useful to the US.

Also, don't underestimate the deterioration of the US, both in terms of production and political mobilization. In WW2, pipe and car factories switched to artillery and tank production. The Ukraine conflict has got them pulling people out of retirement, hand engraving shells and mixing explosives in a big cauldron like a witch.

And they are unable to muster the political power to dictate production for defence rather than for profit.
 

Deino

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Guys … lets keep it simple: Stay on topic aka the H-20 and not on what-if concepts and now more and more war-scenarios against the USA or I‘ll close this thread!

Off-topic & political posts removed.
 

MC530

New Member
Registered Member
Just like Fantasy47, Huanxiang (Fantasy幻想) 20 now only has blurry artistic photos.
No matter how good Mbappe is, if he cannot appear in the Spanish league, we can only see Messi and Ronaldo to score in the game


I recalled one of the Guancha Trios' podcast on what China's next-generation bomber (i.e. H-20) would be like, which was right after that brief interview of the Hong Kong journalist with the Vice Commander of the PLAAF Wang Wei in March 2024.

They've discussed a lot of things in that podcast, however one of the things that stood out is the specific mentions (more like stressing) that the H-20 shouldn't be viewed as "Weapons Destined for Decisive Battle" (决战兵器). If anything, the H-20 would be just one of the many war-fighting platforms that will be made available at China's disposal in the coming years, which includes conventional land-attack and anti-ship missions during wartime, alongside conducting deterrence patrols around Japan or near Alaska during peacetime.

That is, the H-20 will never be a platform that will never see the light of day until doomsday - Because China already have ICBMs (and possibly even FOBS).

That means that all mentions or claims that the H-20 is some kind of suborbital craft or even Tengyun spacecraft is outright moot. So, please pipe down the outrageous enthusiasm on the H-20.


about H20:
If the flying wing configuration is replaced by the Doridos configuration: slightly weaker or equivalent payload, slightly weaker or equivalent low detectability, higher speed and maneuverability, and similar range. Why would one expect a subsonic flying wing to be able to patrol as an effective deterrent?

If the plan is to have a "deterrent" military aircraft appear in the patrol area, then it must be able to be "detected" and "observed", otherwise it is meaningless, because China cannot say that the deployment of 6 H20s in Wuhu claims to have implemented a deterrent against Guam. A subsonic flying wing bomber releasing a Longbo lens cannot be more deterrent than a supersonic J36 doing the same thing in airspace near Guam。
From a rational point of view, H20 must have a wider range of uses or functions. It is not impossible that the development of the flying wing configuration H20 will be stopped.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Does anyone has access to one of the latest podcasts by the Guancha Trio on Dragonfly FM, posted 4 days ago?

The podcast is in between the 386th and 387th podcasts and with the title "波音研发F47,美国六代机真的不会完蛋吗?". Unfortunately, as the podcast requires paying to access, so I have no access to it.

It has been alleged in the comment section underneath the Beach-Storming Otter's post on Weibo that in the later sections of the podcast, the American guy mentioned that there's already something (i.e. H-20/related) underneath Xi'an AC's hangar/hall right now. Can anyone verify that?

1000165645.jpg

Not an outrageous theory: If the strategic bomber's main means of deterrence is air-launched hypersonic nuclear missiles, then it will be the least cost-effective strategic weapon.

1000165634.jpg

A: So here comes the problem - Bro, is there still water (H-20)? Will there ever be (H-20)?
B: Of course. The American Guy said that there are already things inside the Xi'an AC's factory building

(The following needs to be read from bottom to top, in that order)
1000165646.jpg

C: Meaning that the technological demonstrator or prototype is still yet to be assembled? Or is still in the component stage?
D: I've heard of it (in the podcast) before, but which part of the podcast, I can't remember
B (replying to C): That I don't know, but Adorable Whale said that if (the progress is) quick enough, the H-20 can take flight before Zhuhai Expo 2026; and if (the progress is) slow enough, the H-20 should be able to take flight before Trump leaves the White House
B (replying to D): In the latter section, General talked about it after the H-20 "The Next"

Honestly, I only recalled the Adorable Whale saying the former (i.e. H-20 first flight before Zhuhai Expo 2026), and not the latter (i.e. H-20 first flight before Trump leaves the White House). So I'm heavily banking on the former.
 

ashnole

New Member
Registered Member
Saw a few posts about B-2's unfueled combat radius a few pages back. Not going to repeat the same thing but the desired unrefueled combat radius for the B-2 was one-sixth of the earth's circumference or 3600 nautical miles. And this 3600 nmi combat radius included complex SAM-bubbles evading flight trajectory (because nothing is ever truly stealthy!), a full weapons payload of 16 x 2000lb bombs and most importantly a significant loiter time over target (sole reason for B-2's existence was to hunt Soviet ICBM TELs across the vast expanse of the Soviet Union). Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on which camp you are in, there was only so much possible with 1980s tech and the actual unrefueled combat radius of the final design fell some 15-20% short so around 3000 nautical miles unrefueled.

The latest B-21 though is rumoured to have a significantly longer unfueled combat radius. How much more than the B-2 is anyone's guess but "It won’t need logistical support to hold any target at risk." was what the then Secretary of Defense Llyod Austin said during the rollout ceremony.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Past H-20 concept is just obsoleted by 6th gens. The idea was an all aspect stealth plane that can penetrate nearly all air defenses, which would make it ideal to hunt down enemy air defense batteries.

China doesn't really have an issue with bombing volume, what it wants is a way to ensure that enemies will lose their high value radars/IADS needed to defend against being bombed. The different penetration aircraft (especially J-36) achieve that goal.

You are misunderstanding what the H20 is. The H20 doesn’t make sense for tactical missions because it’s a strategic asset.

Literally the last thing you want to use H20s for is to go after heavily defended air defence weapons.

The entire point of the H20 is to bypass those hardened defences so that you can strike at the juicy soft high value targets those IADS is meant to be protecting.

SEAD and DEAD are missions for dedicated tactical assets, not strategic assets. The closest something like the H20 should get to enemy IADS is taking out the HQ and C&C nodes, not the individual radars and launchers themselves.


Obsession with sustain bombing US mainland makes no sense. The logical strategy is to island hop, and all the munitions that would be used on bombing west coast is much better spent speeding up the island hopping, which is what would give China actual ground for victory.

On the contrary, conventional deep strike missions make so much sense for the H20 that I think that will be the H20s primary mission. Indeed, Beijing may go as far as to make the H20 an exclusively conventional strike bomber, so as to avoid even the possibility of triggering a panicked nuclear response from an adversary.

You are again mixing up tactical strategic missions and strategies. Island hopping is tactical stuff, deep penetration bomb behind enemy lines is strategic. The two are not mutually exclusive, and indeed are massively complementary.

Just take Ukraine as a case study. How many tactical strikes does it take to destroy the equivalent of a whole warehouse of weapons and munitions blown up in the rear? Indeed, Ukraine’s only decisive large scale victory was only possible due to focused strikes on Russian logistics behind the lines and the shortages that helped to create in artillery fire support, which they had been counting on to even the odds created by the manpower differences.

In the same vane, island hoping will be a hell of a lot easier and cheaper in terms of lives and resources if the US is forced to split focus and resources fortifying its homeland rear as well as prepare for the landings.

This is arguably where the greatest value of having H20s comes into play, that their existence and strikes will force the US to divert colossal amounts of much needed resources into fortifying their homeland from further attacks at precisely the same time those air defence assets are desperately needed at the front.

On top of that, the US has creaking infrastructure and almost ignorable regenerative capacities to repair and replace core strategic level infrastructure assets damaged or destroyed back home. How long do you think LockMart or Boeing would need to repair their factories after whole bomb bay of cruise missiles have carpet bombed them? Same for US docks and port facilities. Bridges, power stations, munitions warehouses, the list is massive. Even if it costs the PLAAF a H20 to take out one of such targets, it’s worth it because while China can make more H20s, whether the U.S. can regenerate such lost strategic assets in a total war scenario and within a reasonable enough timeframe to have an impact on the war is extremely questionable.

Besides, US' strength is its peacetime standing military. Even if China achieve the same level of withering bombing to the west coast as they can do today to Japan or SK, it would not affect US' big reserves in weapons. It would only partially cripple US' ability to produce more, but the kicker is that US never had that impressive ability to do that to begin with, especially since during a war, US would lose access to all semiconductor besides really large legacy nodes.

War is about logistics. Not just in big ticket weapons, but also in munitions, supplies and repairs. While the U.S. might not be able to manufacture brand new assets at a huge scale, it can potentially reactivate mothballed Cold War platforms and modernise them, similar to what Russia has done to regenerate its armoured strength in Ukraine. Being able to disrupt that will be of fundamental importance.

From the clues we're getting by military watchers in China, H-20 program still exists. But the program has likely changed in nature. Imho H-20 2.0 will be much more focused on command and control facilities and MUMT. Air cruiser or even air CV (I don't mean actually carrying smaller aircraft, just that it could coordinate 100s of drones) compared to J-36's air destroyer concept.

Again, I personally think that are two entirely different programmes that people are conflating.

There is the strategic H20, which will focus on having massive range and maximum stealth for solo strikes against the CONUS.

However, I think there will also be a regional tactical bomber which will focus on high altitude hypersonic speed, and that this JHXX is the platform that will be performing much of the tactical level high difficulty strike missions you currently feel the H20 should do, but which it’s entire design philosophy is manifestly unsuitable for.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
personally I think H-20 needs the range to hit US mainland otherwise what would be the point in a Global bomber if you cant hit your main enemies homeland ?

H20 will need a refuelling because China is very very far away but it can be done with a single refuel if the H20 is massive on range and payload

where would be the best place to refuel mid air while on the way to USA? I am not sure , but China needs to work out the blind spots

more over the refuelling tankers need to remain stealthy too as to avoid giving away their positions so it can be a very classified mission

I am sure China is working on it
 
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