H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

MC530

New Member
Registered Member
There is more than enough merit in non-nuclear strategic bombing. Airbases are hard to destroy, yes. Their contents may be much harder to replace - B-2s, for example, are irraplaceable, and 140 B-21s isn't that hgh a number, unless US just keeps on producing them at a high rate.
Key facilities, especially those involved in very highly optimized production processes, are very much disruptable.
Like, if *dust* is a disaster for high level chip foundry - imagine bombs. Same is applicable to automated ammo and vehicle production; ships in construction, repair facilities, spaceports(!) are particularly attractive.

And if you aren't doing it to your opponent - not the same as him not doing it to you; China is very well known for manufacturinng prowess. Not taking a shot at disrupting it is quite unlikely, given USAF mentality and roots. They were literally born out of this mission.

Cost is an issue. At present, we see that these "key projects" are not well protected because of cost. Capitalists will not accept a 20-foot-thick multi-layer steel and ceramic protective armor plate with a camouflage net buckled on the dock. The commercial sector will not accept that 10 large shipyards of the same size will be built in the same area at the same time to compete for orders - and the war will change this cost calculation method.
Chip factories are simpler. Particularly critical production plants will be surrounded by 20 Patriot or Hongqi 9 launch vehicles, Phalanx or 1130 rapid-fire cannons will be inserted into the ground positions, and 10 or more air warning radars will scan the sky.If these factories are built in areas such as Hubei Province or Sichuan Province, it means that any bomber will have to fly more than 1,000 kilometers in the hinterland of China. Finally, the distance is brutal. If the efficiency of bombing from Hawaii can catch up with China's construction speed, I can only say good luck to them.
If China enters this state, it will not be particularly difficult to produce H20. Just like the Americans, the speed of producing B21 will increase.
But in any case, 140 bombers are too insignificant compared to hundreds of thousands of high-value targets in 10 million square kilometers. Not to mention that the air forces of both sides have always maintained a strong presence.
The result will be back to where it was before, neither side admitting defeat, exhausted and unable to do anything to their opponent.
 
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Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Cost is an issue. At present, we see that these "key projects" are not well protected because of cost. Capitalists will not accept a 20-foot-thick multi-layer steel and ceramic protective armor plate with a camouflage net buckled on the dock. The commercial sector will not accept that 10 large shipyards of the same size will be built in the same area at the same time to compete for orders - and the war will change this cost calculation method.
I.e. all prewar infrastructure sans nuclear C&C and silo fields(which you really, really don't want to touch anyway) is vulnerable.
Also, bombers carry big bombs. so invulnerability is relative.
MOAPs drive now Iranian facilities 130+m into the mountains, this is absolutely unsustainable for large scale industry.
Chip factories are simpler. Particularly critical production plants will be surrounded by 20 Patriot or Hongqi 9 launch vehicles, Phalanx or 1130 rapid-fire cannons will be inserted into the ground positions, and 10 or more air warning radars will scan the sky.If these factories are built in areas such as Hubei Province or Sichuan Province, it means that any bomber will have to fly more than 1,000 kilometers in the hinterland of China. Finally, the distance is brutal. If the efficiency of bombing from Hawaii can catch up with China's construction speed, I can only say good luck to them.
20 patriot/HQ-9 vehicles is about two batteries; even with CIWS - it's penetrable.
Also, patriots and hq-9s are expensive systems, it's not unlike burying a destroyer away from fight.
Creating this threat alone is worth it, just to take away batteries from where they affect the actual fighting.
Ukraine(but also Russia) do it with flying crap with spectacular efficiency; politics outweight military sense.
If China enters this state, it will not be particularly difficult to produce H20. Just like the Americans, the speed of producing B21 will increase.
But in any case, 140 bombers are too insignificant compared to hundreds of thousands of high-value targets in 10 million square kilometers. Not to mention that the air forces of both sides have always maintained a strong presence.
It will. Disrupt automated line, producing stealth bombers(those huge, single piece composite parts they're made of), and it will not anymore.
B-21s(or H-20s) are not FPV drones; it's absolutely impossible to use shadow factory techniques on them.

The result will be back to where it was before, neither side admitting defeat, exhausted and unable to do anything to their opponent.
Victory or defeat between great powers isn't decided by conventional strategic bombing.
But still, it can produce important effects(for reference, see german strategic raids against soviet factories and their impact), and is absolutely worth doing.
 

no_name

Colonel
Bro, the media's rendering makes you feel too excited. If the combination of 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer and 1 supply ship has any impact on Australia's security, it is because they have been here, that's all.
The most important mode of operation of the Chinese Navy is the long-distance ocean training of 2 warships + 1 supply ship. They have been sending this combination to the Somali region for more than 10 years for ocean training. If you want to "deter" Australia, then obviously the minimum is a complete aircraft carrier battle group.
In fact, this is really just a training routine.
Advisers all over the world will make plans for a war against all kinds of implausible enemies, but this cannot be used as policy to influence a well-functioning government. In particular, it cannot be used as a reason to fight for military spending. The plan you mentioned to start a war with the whole world originated in the 1960s。
When the whole world is on the verge of World War III. China lacks nuclear bomb protection and has to build the country as its last line of defense. This has also brought great pain to China, and the waste of resources is no less than that of the United States and the Soviet Union in manufacturing nuclear weapons.
China abandoned this idea in the 1970s after it acquired nuclear bombs. Mao Zedong accepted the "friendship" from the United States and began to plan for opening up. It was only the struggle between various factions and ideas in China that led to this opening up entering a new era in 1979 at the hands of Deng Xiaoping.
During the Deng Xiaoping era, the Chinese military was the weakest in history, and it lasted until 1996 when it was discovered that it did not even have the necessary capabilities to defend Taiwan.
This is boring history.
The current Chinese military does not have a clear plan, otherwise 1.6% will not be a satisfactory military expenditure/GDP ratio
We're gonna have to agree to disagree. I think you've underestimated the amount of industrialization and production capacity potential increase China had in the last 25 years, and the amount of de-industrialization and wasting that the US has undergone at the same time.

1.6% already brings you the conditions today, and mostly from the last twenty years. The reason for 1.6% is not because they don't have a plan, but because they rather go from Liaoning to Shandong to Fujian to type 004 rather than pump out 10 Liaonings. It's because they want to go from J-8 to J-10 to J-20 to J-36 rather than thousands of more J-8 then thousands of more J-10. It's because 1.6% of a big and fast growing pot of money is getting you more than 2.5% of a smaller slower growing pot of money.

Anyway I think it's off topic so back to H-20.
 
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MC530

New Member
Registered Member
I.e. all prewar infrastructure sans nuclear C&C and silo fields(which you really, really don't want to touch anyway) is vulnerable.
Also, bombers carry big bombs. so invulnerability is relative.
MOAPs drive now Iranian facilities 130+m into the mountains, this is absolutely unsustainable for large scale industry.
The size and weight of the MOAP mean it can only be dropped by the B2, and this weapon has never been used in heavily defended areas because it can only be dropped vertically over the target. ——It may be impossible to find traces of B2, but we can see if a projectile with a length of 6.25 meters and a diameter of 0.8 meters is more difficult to track than a drone?
There is no need to compare the effectiveness of a certain weapon. For such a large country, no single weapon can "determine" the outcome of a war.
20 patriot/HQ-9 vehicles is about two batteries; even with CIWS - it's penetrable.
Also, patriots and hq-9s are expensive systems, it's not unlike burying a destroyer away from fight.
Creating this threat alone is worth it, just to take away batteries from where they affect the actual fighting.
Ukraine(but also Russia) do it with flying crap with spectacular efficiency; politics outweight military sense.
In addition, your view of cost is still based on peacetime. During a total war, a destroyer is not a great loss.
Do you really want to compare the capabilities of Russia and Ukraine with those of China and the United States? The simplest comparison is that China currently has about 100 AWACS aircraft, while Russia only has single digits of AWACS aircraft that can take off.
The Russians produce most military equipment in quantities even lower than China's low-rate production in peacetime.
The impact of Ukraine's "cheap aircraft" on the Russians' production is not as high as the media exaggerates, otherwise the Russians would have mobilized long ago.
It will. Disrupt automated line, producing stealth bombers(those huge, single piece composite parts they're made of), and it will not anymore.
B-21s(or H-20s) are not FPV drones; it's absolutely impossible to use shadow factory techniques on them.
What is the reason why the B21 or H20 production lines cannot be replicated? price? Industrial equipment? engineer? China and the United States have their own industrial machine production capabilities and sufficient engineers.
There is no answer other than price. So what’s to stop China/US from replicating 10 bomber factories after mobilization?
Victory or defeat between great powers isn't decided by conventional strategic bombing.
But still, it can produce important effects(for reference, see german strategic raids against soviet factories and their impact), and is absolutely worth doing.
I think the difference between us is that we have different views on national power in peacetime and wartime.
Important effect?
The question now is: If a nuclear country launches a general war but cannot achieve final victory, what is the purpose of launching a general war?
And precision bombing against the homeland will eventually prove to be meaningless.
For example, if B21 throws a cruise missile to attack Dalian, then China will use a conventional warhead ICBM to attack Los Angeles. What could this mean? The new Russian roulette?
Before the nuclear warhead falls, it cannot prevent the H20 made in China or the B21 made in the United States from continuing to cause harm. But the outcome of the war will not change.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree. I think you've underestimated the amount of industrialization and production capacity potential increase China had in the last 25 years, and the amount of de-industrialization and wasting that the US has undergone at the same time.

1.6% already brings you the conditions today, and mostly from the last twenty years. The reason for 1.6% is not because they don't have a plan, but because they rather go from Liaoning to Shandong to Fujian to type 004 rather than pump out 10 Liaonings. It's because they want to go from J-8 to J-10 to J-20 to J-36 rather than thousands of more J-8 then thousands of more J-10. It's because 1.6% of a big and fast growing pot of money is getting you more than 2.5% of a smaller slower growing pot of money.

Anyway I think it's off topic so back to H-20.

The army does not consider profits, but wins the war. The 1.6% military expenditure means that the military has no plan to enter the next war, especially a war with the world's number one. If 1.6% of military expenditure continues for decades (calculated based on the update time of the various weapons you discussed), it can only be said that the goal of the military is very clear: we update all our weapons as planned, but we do not plan to enter a full-scale war immediately

Back to the H20
this investment return is too low for the military. The 1.6% military expenditure is not worth investing in an aircraft that may be eliminated soon or whose purpose is unclear. It may be more cost-effective to waste $2 billion in design costs than waste $20 billion or more to produce and maintain these aircraft. Perhaps an additional US$1 billion will allow Xi'an to come up with a design more worth spending?
 

ENTED64

Junior Member
Registered Member
after so many revelation of recent advanced aircraft H20 is now really over due ?

any idea when we will see it ?
There doesn't seem to have been any concrete developments after the teases in 2021 and such. Maybe it got lower priority and PLAAF is too busy with all their development projects (J-20A, J-20S, J-35, J-36, J-50, various drones, etc.) or maybe it's just under really good OPSEC like J-15T/J-15D and we'll find out when we suddenly get a first flight. I don't know if we even have any high quality rumors about it right now.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Btw, thinking about single point failures in modern military/dualpurpose infrastructure, available for conventional strike, forgot about arguably the most crucial for the coming decade.

Spaceports. Yes, there is survivable/dispersable launch, but for the coming decade, it will not move even close to match static.
 

Racek49

New Member
Registered Member
China does not have bases like Guam or Okinawa, that is, close to the enemy. In my opinion, the H 20 bomber as an equivalent of the B21 is useless, or has little deterrent power. The same role can be filled by aircraft of the J 36 type or with similar characteristics. Other long-range missile carriers, which can also be subsonic and are available, seem to be a good alternative.
However, I could imagine "Oreshnik" systems, which are both unshootable and with acceptable accuracy. |The Russians developed the system based on currently established technologies. Imagine a salvo attack of 5 Oreshniks each with 12 warheads ...
Oh, my poor English..
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
I imagine H-20 as a survivable, affordable suppression weapon, with a large profile required for this job. Range is secondary. But it will likely have good range anyways just by virtue of large size required by other parameters.

It has the spec to attack continental US but not its purpose.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
China does not have bases like Guam or Okinawa, that is, close to the enemy. In my opinion, the H 20 bomber as an equivalent of the B21 is useless, or has little deterrent power. The same role can be filled by aircraft of the J 36 type or with similar characteristics. Other long-range missile carriers, which can also be subsonic and are available, seem to be a good alternative.
However, I could imagine "Oreshnik" systems, which are both unshootable and with acceptable accuracy. |The Russians developed the system based on currently established technologies. Imagine a salvo attack of 5 Oreshniks each with 12 warheads ...
Oh, my poor English..
J-36 can't approach full bomber range and payload metrics. It's quite difficult with achieving comparable VLO, too.

Oreshnik is IRBM, first one Russia made in decades after US destroyed IRBM treaty. China has 3 orders of magnitude more of those. Oreshnik warhead may be of interest to China (assuming they don't have something similar), but that's just warhead.
Different type and class of capability altogether.

Russia is also developing a new generation bomber (and has strategic bomber fleet in the first place), so referring to Russia as alternative won't work.
 
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