H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
But you don't know that. The existing evidence is that the majority of VLO aircraft are conventional layout with high aerodynamic performance meaning tight turn radius, high L/D and high T/W.

The aerodynamic shaping is also the most important part of an aircraft. It determines the choice of everything else and is set in stone. It is why flying bricks are bad. If aerodynamic shaping was irrelevant then a sphere has minimal RCS but obviously a sphere with a turbofan attached to it isn't a good shape. Subcomponents can be changed but not the airframe.

The majority of VLO aircraft use conventional shaping with RCS lowering features which reduces RCS by ~100 fold vs equal dimensioned aircraft with no RCS consideration. See F-15 vs F-22 or J-20 vs J-16 RCS comparisons.

A conventional layout also doesn't necessarily have to be supersonic. It could just have lower engine requirements because it doesn't fly like a brick.

That is factually incorrect.

The aerodynamic shaping is not the most important part of an aircraft. You need to understand this point which is key in aircraft design.

The most important part is actually the aircraft engines which determines:

1. the available power and fuel consumption profile
2. that affects the size of the aircraft, fuel capacity, payload etc

For example, look at the B-2 and B-21. The shaping and design is essentially the same.
But the difference in size is determined by the engines.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
My current overall conclusion, as it seems, my first impressions is correct or much likely: it is some sort of PR stunt to gain attention and even more to distract from the real thing grows stronger and stronger … so let’s wait for the real one.
This looks to me like the fakes we got before the real J-20 prototype flew out. Might be losing designs.

it might not be a good comparison, it took Y-20 3 years from first flight to IOC, taking C919 about 5. I think H-20, assuming it is quite complex, is likely closer to C919. so if it flies this year, IOC in 2026-2027. if this is a critical piece for Taiwan then no attempt on Taiwan before 2029.
Taiwan can be taken care of with the H-6. The H-20 is a long endurance, high range, stealth bomber. You would use it against targets like Japan, Indochina, India, Guam or even Hawaii.

Make no mistake, a Sino Tu-160 White Swan/B-1B will be an absolute White Elephant in today's threat environment.

I would argue that highly visible platforms like the B-1B and Tu-160 have been obsolete since at least the early 1980s. Remember, the U.S Air Force discarded the concept of high altitude high speed bomber such as the XB70 by the early 1960s, when the Soviets began to deploy larger number of long range high performance AAMs.

The follow up B-1 program did not fair any better. It was envisioned to combine the speed of a B-58 Hustler and the payload of a B-52 in low altitude penetrating strikes, but by the early 1970s the Soviet had developed a effective look-down shoot-down radar and rendered such tactics obsolete. Only a combination of U.S domestic politics gamesmanship (Between Carter and Regan) and concerns over ATB Bomber (B-2) program delay saved the B1-B from total cancellation. A relatively low number of 100 was procured and all production ceased by 1988.

Had the Cold War continued apace, the U.S would have acquire far more than mere 21 B-2 Spirit airframes. The original plan called for a purchase of 132+ airframes and the number was slashed only after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. The eye-watering cost of B-2 was a direct result of the dreaded death spiral of program cost rise/procurement cut.
The B-2 and F-22 were not designed for low maintenance cost. You need air conditioned hangars for the coatings not to degrade for example and that adds to the cost of the program. They are hangar queens. I think the whole stealth concept they use was a waste of time. Especially when you consider who these aircraft actually ended up being used against.

The Tu-160 and B-1B (half the size) have their uses. The whole idea the bomber needs to go through without first gaining air superiority with fighters or interceptors is an obsolete concept anyway. The XB-70 was cancelled because the US couldn't get it to work, the materials problems like the honeycomb metal matrix materials it was supposed to use never worked as per design, the boron doped fuel had issues with toxicity, and the Soviets had the Su-15 and later the MiG-25. The MiG-25 could do Mach 3.

At one time the Germans called that the Schnellbomber concept. i.e. a medium bomber, typically twin engine, that is faster than a fighter. Well it is only faster until you make a fighter with the same engine. Say you make a ramjet powered bomber at Mach 5. Then someone makes a fighter with the same engines and it can be intercepted. You make a scramjet powered bomber at Mach 9 with similar engine technology to the Russian Zircon. Then someone makes a fighter with the same engines. etc.
It is always easier to make a fast disposable missile than a fighter or a bomber of the same speed. That is like a law of physics almost. It is easier to make a one use material than a reusable one. And if you can make a twin engine bomber you can make a single engine fighter.
Your Schnellbomber is only better until the opponent catches up in engine, airframe, and material technology.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
That is factually incorrect.

The aerodynamic shaping is not the most important part of an aircraft. You need to understand this point which is key in aircraft design.

The most important part is actually the aircraft engines which determines:

1. the available power and fuel consumption profile
2. that affects the size of the aircraft, fuel capacity, payload etc

For example, look at the B-2 and B-21. The shaping and design is essentially the same.
But the difference in size is determined by the engines.
that's an opinion. are you a subject matter expert in aerospace engineering? I'm not so please be patient. in the limiting case, please show how a brick attached to a high performance turbofan can outfly a Cessna with a relatively weak piston engine with 100x weaker output. thanks.
 

Untoldpain

Junior Member
Registered Member
that's an opinion. are you a subject matter expert in aerospace engineering? I'm not so please be patient. in the limiting case, please show how a brick attached to a high performance turbofan can outfly a Cessna with a relatively weak piston engine with 100x weaker output. thanks.

Given enough thrust. I can certainly make a brick fly good.


After all, the fastest man-made object ever was a manhole cover.

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charles18

Junior Member
Registered Member
...........
B-1 and Tu-160 most definitely are in the "non-VLO" category. They are at best, partially "LO".

My belief is that if you are developing a clean sheet bomber intended to enter service in the mid to late 2020s (and likely going to serve at least 3-4 decades into the future) then you would be idiotic to develop an aircraft that is "non-VLO".
............
I disagree.
Stealth bombers are at least 3 times as expensive compared to regular bombers.
At the beginning of a conflict you send in your stealth bombers to destroy the enemy's radar. After all the radar stations are destroyed, stealth technology is no longer necessary. Regular bombers can finish the job at 1/3 the cost.

I think non-stealth or "non-VLO" bombers are still going to be around for the rest of this century.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I disagree.
Stealth bombers are at least 3 times as expensive compared to regular bombers.
At the beginning of a conflict you send in your stealth bombers to destroy the enemy's radar. After all the radar stations are destroyed, stealth technology is no longer necessary. Regular bombers can finish the job at 1/3 the cost.

I think non-stealth or "non-VLO" bombers are still going to be around for the rest of this century.

I never said that non-stealth/non-VLO bombers "won't be around" into the future.

What I said was "if you are developing a clean sheet bomber intended to enter service in the mid to late 2020s (and likely going to serve at least 3-4 decades into the future) then you would be idiotic to develop an aircraft that is "non-VLO"."


Retaining non-stealth bombers in service is fine.

Developing a clean sheet strategic bomber that is non-stealth, is idiotic.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
B-2 has two men cockpit. greater than 16 hours flights regularly will be stressing in high intensity conflict and the plane is limited to one airbase basically.
4 crew supersonic strategic bomber that provide comfort in 24hr+ missions with large VLO drone working with bomber is ideal.
its far more important to have multiple airbases located deep for safety of bomber force so extended range with deep refueling capability.
supersonic bomber allows more engine power for much greater sensors ability (far harder to put all the sensors and antennas on VLO), large cockpit for comfort and upgrade potential in weopons.
Supersonic bomber can solve the problem of forward deploying AWACS by going much closer to the battlefield.

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
that's an opinion. are you a subject matter expert in aerospace engineering? I'm not so please be patient. in the limiting case, please show how a brick attached to a high performance turbofan can outfly a Cessna with a relatively weak piston engine with 100x weaker output. thanks.

When I say aircraft are designed around their engines, I am literally quoting what the SMEs at LockMart, Boeing and the USAF have said publicly in the past.

---

And if we look at real-life, what do we see?

The F-22 is powered by the F119 engine. This engine was then developed into the F-135 engine which powers the F-35 and the B-21
We see the WS-10 engine being common amongst J-20, J-16/15 and J-10 airframes. Presumably the H-20 will also use the same engine.

So it is accurate to say that aircraft are designed around the engines, not the aerodynamics of the external airframe as you maintain.
 

charles18

Junior Member
Registered Member
I never said that non-stealth/non-VLO bombers "won't be around" into the future.

What I said was "if you are developing a clean sheet bomber intended to enter service in the mid to late 2020s (and likely going to serve at least 3-4 decades into the future) then you would be idiotic to develop an aircraft that is "non-VLO"."


Retaining non-stealth bombers in service is fine.

Developing a clean sheet strategic bomber that is non-stealth, is idiotic.
I guess you didn't get the hint.
I said non-stealth bombers are going to be around for the rest of this century.
Do you think the Xian H-6 bomber is still going to be flying in the year 2099? ......of course not.
So what does this mean?
It means there's going to be a "clean sheet" non-stealth strategic bomber created.
 
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