H-20 bomber (with H-X, JH-XX)

tphuang

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Guys ... I request your opinion on an issue I have with this thread and ongoing discussion:
Even if the thread's title says "PLAAF JH-XX / H-X bomber project", and as such this most interesting discussion fits as on-topic, we all agree, that the H-20 is a real and ongoing project for the PLAAF's future stealthy strategic bomber, we cannot say with the same certainty the JH-XX is still active nor that it will definitely see service.

As such I'm considering to split this thread into two separate threads: One for the hopefully soon to be unveiled real H-20 and one for the rumoured JH-XX. The other option could be, to start a new on for the H-20 once it is unveiled, but I would love to separate between discussing facts for the H-20 and pure speculative issues for the JH-XX.

what do you think?
Can we keep the UCAV discussion accompanying H-20 in here? I agree that a JH-XX rumor thread would make sense.
This all changed with CEC. With CEC, the E-2D can spot the missile over a hundred km away and guide active radar homing interceptors to destroy them. For both supersonic and subsonic missiles, this means multiple engagement cycles, so the fewer engagement cycle advantage of supersonic missiles disappears.

Now this only applies to the USN. No other navies achieved CEC and supersonic missiles works just fine.
Yes, trying to break down USN CVG defense is orders of magnitude harder than any other possible adversary of PLAN.

I think the future has to be high subsonic, extremely VLO anti-ship missiles that can fly really low and hard for AWACS/F-35s to distinguish vs sea clutter.
20 bombers in one sortie is A LOT. Only a fraction of the entire fleet is ready for a mission at a given time. For reference, the entire Russia Air Force has only 63 Tu-22M and 17 Tu-160.

Yes, and clearly, having an entirely new platform that requires its own set of support facilities would be logistically detrimental for the PLAAF, to say nothing about the cost used in developing this platform that could be fruitfully used in other projects.
Right, 20 JH-XX would be a huge deployment. You'd probably need 100 JH-XX to make multiple sorties of 20 JH-XX. As I said, carrying more than 1 YJ-12 would be very hard. I could see them developing a smaller short ranged supersonic missile (maybe mach2.5 in sea skimming mode with 100 km range).
 

ougoah

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I support this, but and I mean BUT we're living in the real world where it means the JH-XX needs a lot of resources (development, production, maintenance, logistics, training etc.).

Which makes it so that no matter how I look at it, the JH-XX isn't good enough to make up for the resources needed for it (at least based on specs we can currently speculate it could theoretically have).

(and well we're not getting rumours about it like we get about H-20, so it seems like the PLAAF made the same decision, maybe in the future it's possible to make a JH-XX with better capabilities and possible with less 'resources' than today).

Sure but this moves further into a realm of speculation. Of course I concede there are associated costs and they are incredibly high to develop, make, purchase, operate, and maintain a fleet of even 20 JH-xx. The point is to shoot down the ridiculous assertion that it is completely useless simply because in isolation, they aren't able to sink a carrier.

We simply do not know how effective a fleet would be and at what procurement rate and operational number of JH-xx would make it effective. How we define effective and so on.

Jason's argument is too simplistic and far too one dimensional, even with broad generalisations and assumptions.
 

ougoah

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Can we keep the UCAV discussion accompanying H-20 in here? I agree that a JH-XX rumor thread would make sense.

Yes, trying to break down USN CVG defense is orders of magnitude harder than any other possible adversary of PLAN.

I think the future has to be high subsonic, extremely VLO anti-ship missiles that can fly really low and hard for AWACS/F-35s to distinguish vs sea clutter.

Right, 20 JH-XX would be a huge deployment. You'd probably need 100 JH-XX to make multiple sorties of 20 JH-XX. As I said, carrying more than 1 YJ-12 would be very hard. I could see them developing a smaller short ranged supersonic missile (maybe mach2.5 in sea skimming mode with 100 km range).

The answer (ignoring other tech domains like HGV ASBM EW and so on) is to simultaneously increase the numbers and overall capability of PLAN to USN levels over time AND to shift the paradigm within this conventional domain. JH-xx is a part of a network of offensive units. PLA has none of the effectiveness a supersonic stealth attack aircraft offers. Therefore JH-xx would only be a positive contribution.

The question of ordinance is the key. Assuming old YJ-12 is a poor one. It's also not a suitable missile for an adversary as capable as USN. I mean this is some Cold War era tech and thinking. While it's an impressive missile, it's a Brahmos story. Nowhere near a perfect solution to anything let alone a first rate navy that's second to none in training, experience, technology, and numbers.

Ordinance is key because part of the solution (again, just within this domain) is in saturation. SM-6 and ESSM are very finite (albeit USN is huge lol) and expensive. Once they are shot out of their VLS or launcher the replenishment supply line is thin, delicate, and FAR. And yes it is delicate over this ocean and over this distance, against a player like China with its manufacturing might and every long range weapon and then some within its arsenal. H-20 and again, JH-xx also, would be amazing assets for hitting supply lines that take hours if not days to rebuild and reinforce.

If there is a way to get USN spending their interceptors in a hurry, then they would be all out of ammo in the western Pacific, days away from the nearest regional bases with only a fraction of reload supplies themselves.

Cheap and plentiful decoys or loitering drone like ordinance are probably explored for this role. These would be far more effective than existing AshM if deployed from stealthy aircraft (that can safely travel much closer to fleets than H6)... especially fast and stealthy aircraft that can carry this sort of payload. Maybe a sleathy pod glider that is dropped from 300km + away by JH-xx or H-20, they then glide as far as possible before detection and attempted interception, deploy dozens of submunitions similar to suicide drones or loitering drones (that China already have developed and put into service) and that takes care of more interceptor missiles from the CBG than a single YJ-12 would. Of course, the submunitions would need enough range at the point of deployment to actually hit the carrier and I'm sure a thousand other questions but building JH-xx just to carry one or even four YJ-12 would be quite limiting for the use of a JH-xx.

Point is JH-xx being a supersonic stealthy medium bomber/attack aircraft would be a platform that's immensely useful for PLA.

While H-6 can still perform its air launching of WZ-8 and air launched ballistic missiles and whatever else they have been/ will be air launching (FOBS, orbital vehicles etc), H-20 is the strategic, subsonic, stealth bomber while JH-xx is useful in these regional roles where speed and penetration is more important than payload. The three are extremely distinct. H-20 probably considered by PLA higher ups as a higher priority since it can cover regional roles similar to that propsed JH-xx one since it has the stealth quality. Not sure if there's enough in the budget to develop a JH-xx. Certainly a nice to have in this case.
 
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JamesRed

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The thought that the USN will be shooting 80 hypersonic missiles out of the sky is absurd. It rests on the claim claiming that supersonic AShMs don't or won't have evasive maneuvering capabilities. A missile that is capable of intercepting another missile has a similar function to a missile being able to dodge another missile. If you can design one you can design the other.
 

tphuang

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Cheap and plentiful decoys or loitering drone like ordinance are probably explored for this role. These would be far more effective than existing AshM if deployed from stealthy aircraft (that can safely travel much closer to fleets than H6)... especially fast and stealthy aircraft that can carry this sort of payload. Maybe a sleathy pod glider that is dropped from 300km + away by JH-xx or H-20, they then glide as far as possible before detection and attempted interception, deploy dozens of submunitions similar to suicide drones or loitering drones (that China already have developed and put into service) and that takes care of more interceptor missiles from the CBG than a single YJ-12 would. Of course, the submunitions would need enough range at the point of deployment to actually hit the carrier and I'm sure a thousand other questions but building JH-xx just to carry one or even four YJ-12 would be quite limiting for the use of a JH-xx.

Point is JH-xx being a supersonic stealthy medium bomber/attack aircraft would be a platform that's immensely useful for PLA.
Right, so given that you agree that decoys and drone swarms is the way to go here, then you do't need supersonic stealth bomber for that role. you can get close enough with H-20 and UCAVs to launch these things and fly away.

The way I look at it, you can have H-20s and UCAVs launch something like MALD or mini-drone dispensers. These things would not only seek to confuse air defense but also could be so small, that they would be hard to detect for any air defense radar. They are probably not going to be lethal enough to do major damage to target ship, but could home in on air defense radar and score mission kills on them. if you can do this with enough ships, then CVBG would basically be defenseless to saturation attacks of sea-skimming subsonic AShM.

While H-6 can still perform its air launching of WZ-8 and air launched ballistic missiles and whatever else they have been/ will be air launching (FOBS, orbital vehicles etc), H-20 is the strategic, subsonic, stealth bomber while JH-xx is useful in these regional roles where speed and penetration is more important than payload. The three are extremely distinct. H-20 probably considered by PLA higher ups as a higher priority since it can cover regional roles similar to that propsed JH-xx one since it has the stealth quality. Not sure if there's enough in the budget to develop a JH-xx. Certainly a nice to have in this case.
Yes, WZ-8 and longer endurance drones would be of great importance here. We know WZ-8 is very hard to track. WZ-7 on the other hand is not so hard to track. Ideally, they need to develop a subsonic VLO drone with much longer endurance than WZ-8. Combined with satellites, it would be able to provide proper cueing for ASBM and hypersonic anti-ship missiles.
 

ougoah

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Right, so given that you agree that decoys and drone swarms is the way to go here, then you do't need supersonic stealth bomber for that role. you can get close enough with H-20 and UCAVs to launch these things and fly away.

But... the H-20 would take a lot longer to get there and it's all a tiny bit like using a cannon to shoot at a mosquito in that the H-20s are strategic bombers (let's assume in this case) and their roles are far more suited to other tasks as much as this is something they could do. Certainly a reason why the PLA prioritises H-20 over any supersonic stealth attack aircraft. The JH-xx would be doing this task better than a H-20. If it's also a more cost effective platform, that's fulfilling the role of the H-20 in this regional theatre, but with lower costs and more importantly, faster speed.

UCAVs would be a much better solution but like with all UAV propositions, it's an attrition and economic problem. The engineering and manufacturing needs to be at a certain place for UAV to be effective. It's the same dynamics over land. If let's say there is a perfect UCAV design for exactly this job, it then needs to be cheap, fast to produce, and simple enough to amass. That would make it at least as effective overall as those two stealth platforms but the question is will such UCAVs be cheap and easy to make enough that they can carry the designed payload of those gliding submunition/suicide drone ejecting pods. Doubtful. It would need to be a massive UCAV at least the wingspan of the Russian Hunter and the length of JH-xx. It would basically end up as some sort of unmanned/ budget version of JH-xx with similar propulsion cost. Maybe instead of two WS10 or WS15 it would use one WS15 or two WS-13 or WS-19. Hardly savings enough to justify an entire new platform to develop, support, and operate.

Point boils down to JH-xx would be nearly twice the speed of H-20 in cruise and more than twice the top speed. If it's not, probably not worth it. This is quite an important factor when we consider sortie rates and how many more pieces of ordinance a same number fleet of JH-xx could deliver compared to H-20.

Some Chinese speculation involves considering the possibility H-20 is supersonic capable. This is highly doubtful though because if it is, it'll be much smaller and lower ranged. You can't just stick 6 WS-10x or 6 WS-15 engines onto a flying wing design that is strategic ranged, supersonic, and carries payload that's comparable to B-2 or Tu-160 etc. Way too much drag in a stealthy flying wing configuration for supersonic cruise speeds. To achieve supersonic speeds, a platform would need to be designed for it ... long and thin like Tu-160, Tu-22, B-1, XB-70 with much greater wing sweep angle. Out of speed, range, payload, a platform at most can only pick two (XB-70 only to achieve all three but payload is considerably lower than B-52 and B-2 even). H-20 has payload and range (assumed) and JH-xx has speed only. If JH-xx wants more payload, it'll lose range and speed. if it wants more range, it'll lose speed. If it wants more speed, it'll lose range and payload. What has been proposed and discussed on this forum over the years on this subject, it seems it's assumed that the ideal compromise for a JH-xx platform is speed and compromised payload and range (compared to full fledged bombers). Basically a Tu-22M payload and range with stealth.

Such a platform would be immensely valuable and H-20 doesn't cover speed and if intended for use in those sorts of regional roles (which no doubt it can and will be), it risks too much additional capability (assuming strategic bomber) that is wasted. Sort of like using a J-20 for low altitude air to ground firing unguided rocket pods. The assumed characteristics of the JH-xx is perfect for the task we've discussed. Much more so than H-6 and H-20.
 
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tphuang

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But... the H-20 would take a lot longer to get there and it's all a tiny bit like using a cannon to shoot at a mosquito in that the H-20s are strategic bombers (let's assume in this case) and their roles are far more suited to other tasks as much as this is something they could do. Certainly a reason why the PLA prioritises H-20 over any supersonic stealth attack aircraft. The JH-xx would be doing this task better than a H-20. If it's also a more cost effective platform, that's fulfilling the role of the H-20 in this regional theatre, but with lower costs and more importantly, faster speed.

UCAVs would be a much better solution but like with all UAV propositions, it's an attrition and economic problem. The engineering and manufacturing needs to be at a certain place for UAV to be effective. It's the same dynamics over land. If let's say there is a perfect UCAV design for exactly this job, it then needs to be cheap, fast to produce, and simple enough to amass. That would make it at least as effective overall as those two stealth platforms but the question is will such UCAVs be cheap and easy to make enough that they can carry the designed payload of those gliding submunition/suicide drone ejecting pods. Doubtful. It would need to be a massive UCAV at least the wingspan of the Russian Hunter and the length of JH-xx. It would basically end up as some sort of unmanned/ budget version of JH-xx with similar propulsion cost. Maybe instead of two WS10 or WS15 it would use one WS15 or two WS-13 or WS-19. Hardly savings enough to justify an entire new platform to develop, support, and operate.

Point boils down to JH-xx would be nearly twice the speed of H-20 in cruise and more than twice the top speed. If it's not, probably not worth it. This is quite an important factor when we consider sortie rates and how many more pieces of ordinance a same number fleet of JH-xx could deliver compared to H-20.

Some Chinese speculation involves considering the possibility H-20 is supersonic capable. This is highly doubtful though because if it is, it'll be much smaller and lower ranged. You can't just stick 6 WS-10x or 6 WS-15 engines onto a flying wing design that is strategic ranged, supersonic, and carries payload that's comparable to B-2 or Tu-160 etc. Way too much drag in a stealthy flying wing configuration for supersonic cruise speeds. To achieve supersonic speeds, a platform would need to be designed for it ... long and thin like Tu-160, Tu-22, B-1, XB-70 with much greater wing sweep angle. Out of speed, range, payload, a platform at most can only pick two (XB-70 only to achieve all three but payload is considerably lower than B-52 and B-2 even). H-20 has payload and range (assumed) and JH-xx has speed only. If JH-xx wants more payload, it'll lose range and speed. if it wants more range, it'll lose speed. If it wants more speed, it'll lose range and payload. What has been proposed and discussed on this forum over the years on this subject, it seems it's assumed that the ideal compromise for a JH-xx platform is speed and compromised payload and range (compared to full fledged bombers). Basically a Tu-22M payload and range with stealth.

Such a platform would be immensely valuable and H-20 doesn't cover speed and if intended for use in those sorts of regional roles (which no doubt it can and will be), it risks too much additional capability (assuming strategic bomber) that is wasted. Sort of like using a J-20 for low altitude air to ground firing unguided rocket pods. The assumed characteristics of the JH-xx is perfect for the task we've discussed. Much more so than H-6 and H-20.

So you want an aircraft that has all aspect stealth against l to x band radar, able to carry 4 supersonic missiles internally with enough range to attack carrier groups to second island chain and can do super cruise? That is a really long wish list. And no, backfire cannot do super cruise without afterburner to the best of my knowledge.

For the mission you described, a j20b with a group of ucavs would do the mission well enough. If china had that much r&d, it should be spending that on 6th gen or more advanced ucavs.
 

Andy1974

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In an age when we have 1m resolution SAR satellites in orbit, and soon quantum radar, I don’t think all aspect stealth is required, I suppose it only needs good stealth from the front against SPY-6 radar.

But do we really expect these to be able to sneak up on a CVG in reality? better to optimize the design for speed, range payload.

EDIT: there is also LiDAR, with 1mm resolution, from and to orbit.
 

ougoah

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So you want an aircraft that has all aspect stealth against l to x band radar, able to carry 4 supersonic missiles internally with enough range to attack carrier groups to second island chain and can do super cruise? That is a really long wish list. And no, backfire cannot do super cruise without afterburner to the best of my knowledge.

For the mission you described, a j20b with a group of ucavs would do the mission well enough. If china had that much r&d, it should be spending that on 6th gen or more advanced ucavs.

Okay. Let's move on and agree to disagree on what can do what job effectively enough. I think a JH-xx is distinct enough from H-20 that its capabilities warrant a platform. Whether it's technically achievable and whether there is enough resources to do this is another matter.
 
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