Guangdong overtakes Taiwan

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Now then gents, you know that this is a delicate issue, but given the significance of this economic event in helping determine the balance of power between the two halves of China, too important to ignore.

The news is this: Guangdong Province in Southern China (excluding Hong Kong and Macao) has exceeded Taiwan in Exchange Rate GDP. Taiwan with 5% annual growth is expected to achieve an output of $379Billion this year, whilst Guangdong is online to achieve a blistering growth rate of 18% and achieve a GDP of $390Billion.

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Undoubtedly Guangdong is China's foremost Province, but the other coastal powerhouses are not hugely behind and growing at not dissimilar rates.

So here is the question, with Taiwan no longer able to claim being the foremost area of China, how is the balance of military power across the straits likely to shift and in what timescale is this going to be realistic?

OK guys, keep it nice, keep it factual and keep it straight. Its an interesting topic and will be a shame to have to close it due to immaturity.
 
D

Deleted member 675

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given the significance of this economic event in helping determine the balance of power between the two halves of China, too important to ignore.

That's funny, because I don't find it as important as you make it out.

Taiwan with 5% annual growth is expected to achieve an output of $379Billion this year, whilst Guangdong is online to achieve a blistering growth rate of 18% and achieve a GDP of $390Billion.

Congratulations to Guangdong - they've overtaken an island with about 1/4 of its population in terms of GDP.

with Taiwan no longer able to claim being the foremost area of China

It doesn't claim to be the foremost area of China - what made you think it does?

how is the balance of military power across the straits likely to shift and in what timescale is this going to be realistic?

I'm not sure how it can shift the balance of military power. Maybe you could put your own theories forward first as to how it could.
 

crobato

Colonel
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Taiwan does not have much potential growth rate anymore. In other words guandong is far from done yet while Taiwan is exhausted.

Balance of power is no issue ; its been shifted already for the PRC's favor with spades.
 

kickars

Junior Member
Congratulations to Guangdong - they've overtaken an island with about 1/4 of its population in terms of GDP.
What a way to congratulate! Very British, though.

Anyway, I do think it's an important issue since this kind of thing has never happened before. However, I have to agree with FuManChu, as well. I really don't think it will change anything other than economical issues in the region.

Whether Taiwan used to be the foremost area in China, it is a statement depends on where you come from. And from which side you are looking at this thing. Since most westerner have never see Taiwan as apart of China. Then I understand why you don't think Taiwan is the foremost area in China. But for some they may think otherwise. At this moment, nobody can say the other side of the statement is wrong, and nobody can say they are right, either. So just say what ever you want to say. BUT, DO NOT point out other people's statements are wrong.
 
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Deleted member 675

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Taiwan does not have much potential growth rate anymore. In other words guandong is far from done yet while Taiwan is exhausted.

Taiwan has as much growth potential as most other non-developing countries - it's hardly exhausted. It isn't quite "developed" yet, but is much more that way than any Chinese province. Guangdong of course has a lot more scope in comparison given it is less developed and has a larger population.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Unless the PRC government screw things up big, I think it's quite clear time is on their side in terms of overtaking Taiwan politically, economically & militarily.
But I do think while they can feel some pride in Guangdong overtaking Taiwan, they really should set much higher goals given their potential which leads nicely to this story that China's economy in PPP terms will take a 40% hair cut based on some calculations.
Some may not like this, but I think Chinese shouldn't mind too much. Like I said, get the fundamentals right & time is on their side.

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China's economy 40 percent smaller than estimated: analyst

3 days ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) — China's economy is 40 percent smaller than most recent estimates, a US economist said Wednesday, citing data from the Asian Development Bank and guidelines from the World Bank.

Albert Keidel, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former US Treasury official and World Bank economist, made the comments in a report published by the US think tank and in a commentary in the Financial Times.

Keidel told AFP he made the calculations based on a recent ADB report that made its first analysis of China's economy based on so-called purchasing power parity (PPP), which strips out the impact of exchange rates.

"The results tell us that when the World Bank announces its expected PPP data revisions later this year, China's economy will turn out to be 40 percent smaller than previously stated," Keidel wrote.

"This more accurate picture of China clarifies why Beijing concentrates so heavily on domestic priorities such as growth, public investment, pollution control and poverty reduction."

The ADB data was the first using purchasing power analysis, according to Keidel.

Based on this new analysis, he said "the number of people in China living below the World Bank's dollar-a-day poverty line is 300 million -- three times larger than currently estimated."

Keidel told AFP that under these calculations, China's gross domestic product (GDP) would have been roughly five trillion dollars in 2005, compared to some 12 trillion for the United States on the same basis.

This would still mean China's economy is moving ahead of Japan as the world's second largest economy, but might not overtake the United States until around 2030.

"These calculations are not just esoteric academic tweaks," Keidel wrote.

"Based on the old estimates, the US Government Accountability Office reported this year that China's economy in PPP terms would be larger than the US by as early as 2012. Such reports raise alarms in security circles about China's ability to build a defense establishment to challenge America's," he said.

The use of PPP began in the 1950s in an effort to compare economies without the distortion of exchange rates that could be influenced by trade or investment flows.

Keidel said his analysis has little meaning for the debate on whether China's yuan is undervalued, as many economists say.

"The PPP shouldn't be used to check whether the commercial exchange rate is valid," said Keidel, who has argued that it is not clear whether the yuan is vastly undervalued.

But he said the data helps explain why Chinese authorities are paying little heed to calls by Washington and Europe to boost the yuan.

"Our focus in the US on trade and exchange rates is secondary or tertiary in their view," he said.

Keidel said the US Congress and administration officials "should recognize the limitations and opportunities revealed by these more accurate data."

"For example, risks to its impoverished rural hinterland from a sudden large revaluation of its currency loom larger in Beijing's eyes than in Washington's," he added.

Keidel had been deputy director for the Office of East Asian Nations at the US Treasury and was previously a senior economist in the World Bank office in Beijing.

Based on the new data from ADB, Keidel said the World Bank is in the process of revising its estimates on the Chinese economy. He said the ADB report earlier this year drew little attention but that "the Chinese have never before participated in a survey that allowed these comparisons."

In Beijing, the World Bank's lead economist for China, Bert Hofman, said he thought it was too early to use the PPP as a basis to revise the size of China's economy.

"I think it's still at the moment at a research stage," Hofman told AFP.

"There is a big international effort going on about international price comparisons ... to correct differences in price levels across countries (in order) to give a better comparison across economies," Hofman said.

That effort is "still very much work in progress," he said. "It's too early to tell what the final implications will be."
 

Autumn Child

Junior Member
No one...sometimes not even the chinese government have an accurate data to measure chinese economy. Notice that they have revised GDP figures several times after it was published. The world bank also relied on only a handful of government figures. They cannot conduct research without the goverment's approval. Therefore i would trust the chinese government figure more than any other organization's figure.

Lots of transaction are dealt in cash and many manufacturer only report partial revenue to the government. All these data means nothing at the moment. In most western analysis mind, the chinese real estate ans stock market will not be sustainable for long. Well....they have been proven wrong,...so far. My driver in shanghai earn as little as 3000RMB (about USD400) and he got 3 apartments that is worth 4.5 million RMB in total (about 1.5 million each). I don't know where he gets the money to buy so many apartment. This would have been quite impossible in most developed nation. I am not saying that all chinese invest like my driver, but many in shanghai and more developed cities do.

The point is I think that the economic figure is lower than actual GDP figure if all those cash and unreported earnings are accounted for. Think about why the pantagon claimed that the chinese military spending is higher than actually reported. The steel used to make those war machines also comes from a state owned steel manufacturer. Therefore the price of the steel is questionable and probably alot cheaper than if they purchase it from other private or foreign manufacturer. The complexity and size of the economy plus the fact that it is not fully opened to the world yet makes it impossible to accurately measure. All the figures out there, including the government's are at best estimates. And no one outhere can accurately predict how the chinese economy progress for the next few years. It is unpredictable (government policy, world supply and demand, natural disasters) and not matured yet to the point that you can use western analytics to predict the future.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
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Lets try not to focus too much on raw economics, or we will end up in Off Topic:(

I see this primarily as a psychological issue. Not so long ago Taiwan was a bigger economy than the entire PRC, and whilst this was hardly liable to stay that way for long, there has been a highly entrenched view of Taiwan being the equal of very large parts of the PRC including its best bits and with the PRC seen as some sprawling amorphous creature.

It is this view that has now been ended and Taiwan's Economic (and thus strategic and security) position has come sharply into focus and the cold hard grey light of day shows the situation for what it is. The equivalent of a Province, jocking for position with other Provinces! I think this is going to have a big impact on next years Presidential elections and will cause really hard questions on the point of many of the Islands planned or anticipated defence spending commitments.

Re: Schumacher, I have read this article earlier and would guess you could put this down (if true) to rising food and fuel prices (which hit the poor disproportionately) and the falling dollar against which Chinese PPP is usually measured (would PPP against the Euro give a similar result). Interesting subject but please start a thread in Off Topic if you want to explore further.

Re Autumn Child: .... can I er.... borrow your driver?
 
D

Deleted member 675

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Not so long ago Taiwan was a bigger economy than the entire PRC, and whilst this was hardly liable to stay that way for long, there has been a highly entrenched view of Taiwan being the equal of very large parts of the PRC including its best bits and with the PRC seen as some sprawling amorphous creature.

Maybe that was how outsiders viewed things, but the Taiwanese I've come across never thought that way. They might compare their country to China in terms of things living standards, social security, etc, but that's different.

the cold hard grey light of day shows the situation for what it is.

That Taiwan's GDP per capita is 3.5 - 4 times greater than China's? :confused:

I think this is going to have a big impact on next years Presidential elections

I doubt it. Taiwan isn't concerned by a region like Guangdong overtaking it in terms of raw wealth. If anything it's seen as a new place for business opportunities.

will cause really hard questions on the point of many of the Islands planned or anticipated defence spending commitments

If so then it will only crystallise Taiwan's need to keep spending at a decent level. Both the main parties have accepted it should be kept at a minimum of 3% of GDP.
 

Autumn Child

Junior Member
Leaving that aside, my previous post is there to illustrate that talking economics just by GDP figure or per capita of China is pointless at the moment since the accuracy of the figure is questionable.
 
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