Great Fictional World War III book (China & allies VS US & allies)

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

Dongfeng said:

It says: If this is how Americans see China, it is terrible. We thank god that Americans have yet reached China, and they think that Chinese is interested in invading them! It is a little bit of persecution maniac. If a considerable amount of Americans think it that way, it would a disaster for China.

By the way, to amorphous: please try to use English in this forum so that everyone could understand you

Click to expand...

Dongfeng: Thanks for the translation. I mentioned ealier I wrote that post in Chinese on purpose though I could have been more direct about my point.

Troika: you brought up a few very interesting points about China. The subtle changes in the power distribution in China within the government and outside influence is indeed happening, though not much highlighted. I can't agree with you more on the point that a country should not go democratic for the sake of being democratic. No doubt the current system of China is far from being perfect. Changes are needed. But if you drive a stick-shift car you know not to go from gear one to gear 5 directly or you'll damage the car. Likewise I believe for a country like China to improve her governance (let's say toward democracy) it had better happen slowly in many many steps, otherwise China is going to sustain tremendous and likely tragic societal cost. In light of such thinking and the fact that most Chinese people don't have the urge of becoming democratic or improving human right status, external pressure pushing demoncracy/human right onto China can be in some context viewed as conspiracy or unfriendly diplomatic leverage, especially as many Chinese sympathize with the Russian people. So sometimes Chinese people get unhappy with these things and then they will be subsequently labelled by the Western media as nationalistic.

To the Moderator: the last one on political nonsense.

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

I already voiced my opinion on the book (I couldn't put it down till I was done). I would just like to elaborate on the space combat element. I thought that it was very realistic: lasers and nuclear weapons probably would be the weapons of choice. I also think that it would be necessary to have a Space Navy to safeguard satillite capabilites. But you should have included battles over the "Lagrangian Points" which are points in space where there is gravitational equilibrium allowing for orbit between the Earth and moon or other bodies like the Earth and the Sun while staying in one place without expending fuel. Basically they are strategic spots out in space. I think that in the future (the far future) these spots will become valueable as waypoints on long space voyages and it would have been cool to introduce the idea. Also I think that the frequent use of asteroids as weapons would cause the death of humanity because of the amount of dust that would be thrown into the atmosphere.

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

Jeff Head said:

amorphous, thanks for the translation. I actually believe our hopes and dreams for the future are similar in nature.

I believe China will change...it is a matter of time...and it is also a matter of how. My own hope is that the Chinese people will throw off the current totalitarian government and adopt a more representative, republican form of government...and I believe that is happening by degrees.

I also pray that this can occur as it did in most of the East Block countries, without major bloodshed. Communist governments have a horrific track record in this regard, but my hope and prayer is that ultimately it will occur peacefully.

Click to expand...

Jeff, don't mind me saying, but do you come from the South? I think you are a republican aren't you? One of the supporter of the Blue Team? The book served as a subtle blueprint (however wishful it is) as to how to take on China. We get it, it is a fiction. But do we write a book about how China should take out USA and install a "perfect" authoritarian regime in continental USA?? In fact, you don't need us to turn you into a totalitarian regime. When you have a president that's shunning the congress..the future looks bright in that direction.
()

So, it is extremely funny you should mention totalitarian regime. Warrantless wiretapping, phone tapping, online monitoring, human rights abuse across CIA blackop prisons, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, unwarranted detention without trial, unprecedented increase of power in executive branch, increased secrecy of government, unprecedented control of the media. This is the "beacon of the free world".

If you have issue with authoritarian regime, you should realize, that there are many more of them around the world. Some of them are the most advanced but authoritarian society in the world not too long ago. Take Singapore for example, it is still extremely authoritarian. So why aren't you writing a book about invading Singapore? I think you only write the book to voice your racist redneck view. Maybe you just can't stand the fact that the world is becoming multi-polar, you still cling on to the fact that you wish for a world domination by the american. Infact, this is exactly what you like to see isn't it..? To install an puppet regime (call "democracy") in every country in the world to assert american hegemony isn't it? (isn't that the ending of the book?)

China will change, but it will change under its OWN VOLITION. Democracy needs time to take root, and democracy means to take control of one's own destiny by its own free will. At this crucial stage, it should not. It is still under transformation, when the time is right, in 15 years time, following the footsteps of Asian Tigers, (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) it will prosper, and a peaceful transition into a fully democratic society will be realise.


PS. When China is slowly transitioning into a democratic society, USA is transitioning into a totalitarian regime. Isn't that ironic?

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

amorphous said:

Dongfeng: Thanks for the translation. I mentioned ealier I wrote that post in Chinese on purpose though I could have been more direct about my point.

Troika: you brought up a few very interesting points about China. The subtle changes in the power distribution in China within the government and outside influence is indeed happening, though not much highlighted. I can't agree with you more on the point that a country should not go democratic for the sake of being democratic. No doubt the current system of China is far from being perfect. Changes are needed. But if you drive a stick-shift car you know not to go from gear one to gear 5 directly or you'll damage the car. Likewise I believe for a country like China to improve her governance (let's say toward democracy) it had better happen slowly in many many steps, otherwise China is going to sustain tremendous and likely tragic societal cost. In light of such thinking and the fact that most Chinese people don't have the urge of becoming democratic or improving human right status, external pressure pushing demoncracy/human right onto China can be in some context viewed as conspiracy or unfriendly diplomatic leverage, especially as many Chinese sympathize with the Russian people. So sometimes Chinese people get unhappy with these things and then they will be subsequently labelled by the Western media as nationalistic.

To the Moderator: the last one on political nonsense.

Click to expand...

I fully agree with you there amorphous. China is really just following the footsteps of Asian tigers. First, economic freedom, then democracy. I personally thinks it is the wrong order to install freedom over democracy. Just look at the "fail states" in South America, compare to Asian Tigers. For most of them, democracy did not help those countries pulling out of poverty, instead, it push them further behind.

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

dioditto said:

We get it, it is a fiction. But do we write a book about how China should take out USA and install a "perfect" authoritarian regime in continental USA?? In fact, you don't need us to turn you into a totalitarian regime. When you have a president that's shunning the congress..the future looks bright in that direction.

So, it is extremely funny you should mention totalitarian regime. Warrantless wiretapping, phone tapping, online monitoring, human rights abuse across CIA blackop prisons, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, unwarranted detention without trial, unprecedented increase of power in executive branch, increased secrecy of government, unprecedented control of the media. This is the "beacon of the free world".

China will change, but it will change under its OWN VOLITION. Democracy needs time to take root, and democracy means to take control of one's own destiny by its own free will. At this crucial stage, it should not. It is still under transformation, when the time is right, in 15 years time, following the footsteps of Asian Tigers, (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) it will prosper, and a peaceful transition into a fully democratic society will be realise.

Click to expand...

Well, most of your post is political/ideological in nature so, as I have stated, I will not respond directly to it...other than to say that that response is already written and was included as a part of your own quote from me at the start of your post. Those are my sincere feelings, that the Chinese people themselvesd will change from within and crewate their own representative government.

As to conditions here in the US...there are many of us concerned about the drift you speak of and who have acted against it and continue to do so to this day. Reading some of my other writings, particularly about the events in Klamath Falls Oregon, will make that clear. I am glad we are free to do so...and I might add, I am glad tens of millions of us remain armed as citizens as a counter weight to any direct plans or moves to the contrary. As bad as you may view conditions here, we have the abnility and the will to act. The people vote and change things peacefully and without horrible carnage or turmoil...and you are seeing that take place.

Anyhow, I hope folks enjoy the book for its fictional content and its discussion of technologies and strategies.

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

Jeff Head said:

As to conditions here in the US...there are many of us concerned about the drift you speak of and who have acted against it and continue to do so to this day. Reading some of my other writings, particularly about the events in Klamath Falls Oregon, will make that clear. I am glad we are free to do so...and I might add, I am glad tens of millions of us remain armed as citizens as a counter weight to any direct plans or moves to the contrary. As bad as you may view conditions here, we have the abnility and the will to act. The people vote and change things peacefully and without horrible carnage or turmoil...and you are seeing that take place.

Click to expand...

Well, I am glad that some american still feels this way. Not many american think like this now, since their "patriotism" is on the line if they criticize their government. As for the ability to act. I have to interject a point, David Koresh of Branch Davidians cult... even though he is a cult leader of questionable moral value, when government feels he is a threat, they take him out, along with more than 2 dozen people including children. So I question your "ability" to act against a government entity now more powerful than ever, and has little judiciary check against it. You are only one step away from Totalitarism because now, more than anything, the federal government has the ability to detain you, label you a "possible terrorist", sent you to Guantanamo or any of the CIA prison oversea, and you will never be heard of again. And the definition "terrorist"... is a filmy and ever changing definition. In the future, (or maybe now) it can be anything the executive branch decide what it defines. (just like what Bush thought is the "definition of torture")

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

dioditto said:

Well, I am glad that some american still feels this way. Not many american think like this now, since their "patriotism" is on the line if they criticize their government. As for the ability to act. I have to interject a point, David Koresh of Branch Davidians cult... even though he is a cult leader of questionable moral value, when government feels he is a threat, they take him out, along with more than 2 dozen people including children. So I question your "ability" to act against a government entity now more powerful than ever, and has little judiciary check against it.

Click to expand...

My onw feelings and comments on the entire Waco affair are well documented, not only on the web (my site), but to my own representatives, who, BTW, here in Idaho, were as avid and upset as I.

The Davidians were not found to be responsible for the deaths that occurred in Waco in a trial and court of law. They were sentenced (and far too harshly IMHO) for minor gun violations they were found guilty of. The jury in that trial indicated that the wrong people were on trial and there were congressional hearings and censure that went along with policing our internal police forces (BATF, FBI, etc.) to correct the problem. IOW, America did act and the actions were the result of millions of voices that were raised. I did not agree at all with the theology of Koresh...but efforts to smear him with child abuse failed in a court of law in Texas, and he and his followers were not hurting anyone there in their compound, and in this nation, freedom of religion, as long as you are not violating other's rights in your exercise of it, is an unalienable right...besides, Koresh took walks each day so he could have been apprehended. It was not about Koresh, it was about an agency trying to make a film of a high profile case and get more funds IMHO, and it was a terrible abuse of power that still leaves a very bitter taste in many Americans mouths.

Having said that, there are those who will take such incidents and apply it as a whole to the United States when such isolated indients are not, and have not been the rule in this nation. Despite its failings, there is no place where there is more freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and basic tranquility. Most Americans I know are committed to keep it that way.

But...there I go...getting sucked into what is basically a political discussion and this thread is really about the book and its technology and strategies...any comments on that?

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

Finn McCool said:

I already voiced my opinion on the book (I couldn't put it down till I was done).

Click to expand...

Well, if it held your interest in that manner, than I view my efforts as successful.

Finn McCool said:

I would just like to elaborate on the space combat element. I thought that it was very realistic: lasers and nuclear weapons probably would be the weapons of choice. I also think that it would be necessary to have a Space Navy to safeguard satillite capabilites. But you should have included battles over the "Lagrangian Points" which are points in space where there is gravitational equilibrium allowing for orbit between the Earth and moon or other bodies like the Earth and the Sun while staying in one place without expending fuel. Basically they are strategic spots out in space.

Click to expand...

I am very familiar with Lagrange points but limited the discussion, activites, and combat in the book to low earth orbit and to gyro-synchronous satellites because that is where the major activity in space relating to the conflict currently is and would be in the time frame of this story.

Finn McCool said:

I think that in the future (the far future) these spots will become valueable as waypoints on long space voyages and it would have been cool to introduce the idea.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Finn McCool said:

Also I think that the frequent use of asteroids as weapons would cause the death of humanity because of the amount of dust that would be thrown into the atmosphere.

Click to expand...

Well, the orbital bombardment in the book was supposed to consist of very small objects that would not raise enough dust and other material to substantially alter the ecos. A single large volcano, like Mount St. Helens, put much more particulate into the atmospher at one time and we have survived that.

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

Okay Jeff, here is my review of the book (and the critique). And it is going to be harsh.

In your foreword "Why dragon's fury", you said:

"In addition, our entire society has been watered down by a form of political correctness and immoral socialization that I believe the founders of this nation would have fought to prevent."

Click to expand...

I am curious as to what you meant by that? When you say "political correctness" are you refering to the liberal view of inter-race relation? and this lead to the "immoral socialization" question, are you saying there should be racial segregation!!?? Does interracial relationship piss you off?? The founding father of america namely George Washington was a Virginia plantation proprietor and a lifelong slaveholder, and he certainly is a racist; Thomas Jefferson he is extremely racist no doubt about that, and many other founding fathers, were known to be racist in view. So taken your whole sentence together, it paints a very, very disturbing picture before the book even started, and what is expected to come.


But the first chapter shows your ultra-conservative line of thoughts along the line of the "Blue Team". The chapter continue to paint a very disturbing, and unrealistic conjuncture on the chinese posturing. China bashing is not new, and it is similar to what Tom Clancy wrote, with much more spelling errors. (Chinese funded the Al-quada?? Last I check, it was AMERICA who did that) You painted a very one sided, and extremely unfavourable view of the Chinese people to say the least (perhaps to support your racist view). You should be aware, it is America who invented, and play such game at much greater scale. (Read "The confession of economic hitman")


The characterisation of Jian Zemin is...well.. it seems Dr. Fu Manchu has been reincarnated into the body of a President!! The character is shallow and one dimensional to say the least.


Also, curiously, how does a general run for president? I am not familiar with the american law, but I thought for a general to seek presidency, don't you have to be a senator, or a state governor first? But your prediction of "successful prosecution of Terrorism" rings hollow right now. Both Iraq and Afganistan, are looking more like Vietnam than a success.


What you envision to be the "Bower Doctrine for reconstruction and reconstitution after the war" in reality, seems to be just the same o' American puppet regime trick, it didn't work in South America and Vietnam, and it certainly didn't work in the current Iraq. A democracy that's forced upon the local population, already violated the very spirit it tries to foster, so how can it work?


The book continues with much christian fundamentalist viewpoints, and repeatly hinted white supremacy. What you really wish for, is for the local population of the world subjugated to the "white america". That is pretty much sum up the whole exercise of this book. Tactics, strategy, and technology mention in this book all reinforce your underlying racist ideological view.


In the final chapter, it even sounds like a handbook written by the white colonists few hundred years back. Once the local populations are conquered, subjugated under control, and start the chain of exploitation, let's move on to the next target. (Space and beyond)


To sum it up.
America, GOOD! (Except those that help Chinaman, extremely bad)
Chinaman (and the Muslims) BAD! (except one that help America are good, but not that good, atleast not as good as born american)
.

I like your creative illustrations, but I think that's all I like about it.
I don't like to say this, (and I really don't) but your writing exude such prejudice. I certainly didn't like your racist outlook and its view on life projected from this fictional book.

Re: Great China VS U.S war book

dioditto said:

Jeff, don't mind me saying, but do you come from the South? I think you are a republican aren't you? One of the supporter of the Blue Team? The book served as a subtle blueprint (however wishful it is) as to how to take on China. We get it, it is a fiction. But do we write a book about how China should take out USA and install a "perfect" authoritarian regime in continental USA?? In fact, you don't need us to turn you into a totalitarian regime. When you have a president that's shunning the congress..the future looks bright in that direction.
(

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

)

So, it is extremely funny you should mention totalitarian regime. Warrantless wiretapping, phone tapping, online monitoring, human rights abuse across CIA blackop prisons, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, unwarranted detention without trial, unprecedented increase of power in executive branch, increased secrecy of government, unprecedented control of the media. This is the "beacon of the free world".

If you have issue with authoritarian regime, you should realize, that there are many more of them around the world. Some of them are the most advanced but authoritarian society in the world not too long ago. Take Singapore for example, it is still extremely authoritarian. So why aren't you writing a book about invading Singapore? I think you only write the book to voice your racist redneck view. Maybe you just can't stand the fact that the world is becoming multi-polar, you still cling on to the fact that you wish for a world domination by the american. Infact, this is exactly what you like to see isn't it..? To install an puppet regime (call "democracy") in every country in the world to assert american hegemony isn't it? (isn't that the ending of the book?)

China will change, but it will change under its OWN VOLITION. Democracy needs time to take root, and democracy means to take control of one's own destiny by its own free will. At this crucial stage, it should not. It is still under transformation, when the time is right, in 15 years time, following the footsteps of Asian Tigers, (South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore) it will prosper, and a peaceful transition into a fully democratic society will be realise.


PS. When China is slowly transitioning into a democratic society, USA is transitioning into a totalitarian regime. Isn't that ironic?

Click to expand...

I hardly think that it is necessary to insult Jeff. Trust me I had some problems with political viewpoints espoused in the book but I hardly would call it racist (read The Bear and the Dragon by Tom Clancy if you want to see racism, there is an old thread here about how much of a joke that book is, I couldn't even read it after a while).

I would like to comment on how you deflect Jeff's criticism of the Chinese government's authoritarianism by offering examples of American human rights violations, etc. This is less for you dioditto and more for Americans. Every time we allow things like "indefinate detentions" at Guantanamo to happen, we undermine the case for democracy everywhere by allowing people to make the argument that dioditto is making here. And that makes us less secure as Americans. It's not a legitimate argument but it is fig leaf anyone can hide behind. It is a fact that as dioditto sarcastically stated the the US is the beacon of democracy (and I don't mean that in an insincere neoconservative way), and when that beacon is dimmed, it becomes easier for the ships it is guiding to crash on the rocks.

Sorry for the politics, I just wanted to make a point to all Americans out there.