Germany orders 4 6800 ton Frigates for 3.4 bln Dollar

Hi,

Jeff Head said:

What are your thoughts on the F125? say, as compared to the F124?.
Actually, I was surprised to see the 48 cell VLS with mention of potnetiial SM-2 or more. I did not think the F125 was going to have that strong of an air defense capability.

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sorry to blow the discussion but to this date there is NO official confirmation that there will be ANY vls cells at all installed on F125. On the contrary a member of Parliaments financial committee, that gave green light for the program last week, responded to a question in saying that the F125 mission profile would make long range missiles (in vls) unnecessary.

There is a remote chance that some kind of vls launched missile might replace the capability lack of the stricken GMRLS but that is speculation at best. Maybe there will be a fitted-for-not-with capability to install some kind of vls because there clearly is enough room between the main gun and the forward RAM launcher.

And Jeff: the way I understood you an AEGIS-like system is something that has a Phased Array Radar System (PARS), Vertical Launch System (VLS) for it's primary missile battery and a digitially controlled, fully integrated battle management system capable of controlling all phases of combat (well I copied that from your site actually). The F125 will have a very sophisticated CMS but I wouldn´t consider it an AEGIS-like system because it will most definitely not be optimized for AAW but for littoral / asymmetric warfare.

That said comparing the F125 and the F124 is like comparing apples and oranges. The later is and will be the main AAW asset in the German Navy (to bad the 4th FGS Thüringen was never ordered). The F125 will fill the "LCS role" on a "FREMM like platform" just without the land attack and surface-to-air missiles.

Last but not least those for ships will replace all eight F122 Bremen class ships in the 2014-2017 timeframe. The F122 is not that worn out and old as one might think btw. The oldest one will be 32 years old in 2014 and the youngest one will be 27 in 2017. All eight will be modified from 2008-2010 with a complete new CIC (hard- and software), LINK-16 and integration of all equipments that was installed since the last mayor upgrade in the late 90s (e.g. RAM block 1, MLG 27, MSP-500 + fire control module, TRS-3D).

Oh, btw here is my latest take at the new ship:



Regards

MConrads said:

Hi ... to this date there is NO official confirmation that there will be ANY vls cells at all installed on F125.

There is a remote chance that some kind of vls launched missile might replace the capability lack of the stricken GMRLS but that is speculation at best. Maybe there will be a fitted-for-not-with capability to install some kind of vls because there clearly is enough room between the main gun and the forward RAM launcher.

And Jeff: the way I understood you an AEGIS-like system is something that has a Phased Array Radar System (PARS), Vertical Launch System (VLS) for it's primary missile battery and a digitially controlled, fully integrated battle management system capable of controlling all phases of combat (well I copied that from your site actually). The F125 will have a very sophisticated CMS but I wouldn´t consider it an AEGIS-like system because it will most definitely not be optimized for AAW but for littoral / asymmetric warfare.

Last but not least those for ships will replace all eight F122 Bremen class ships in the 2014-2017 timeframe. The F122 is not that worn out and old as one might think btw. The oldest one will be 32 years old in 2014 and the youngest one will be 27 in 2017.

Oh, btw here is my latest take at the new ship:

[qimg]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k279/shipbucket/DFFKlasse1252.gif[/qimg]

Regards

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Thanks for the info, and for the, as always, GREAT graphics.

As to the armament fit-out on the F125. I know that historically there has been no mention of a VLS, that's why I was somewhat surprised by this thread. My comments were based on the information contained in this thread which indicated a 48 cell MK-41 outfitted with ESSM and SM-2. SEE POST 7.

My comments revolved around those statements and the thought there is a Phased Array Radar, a central, digitall battle management system, and that, with the 48 Cell VLS, there would also be a VLS with AAW missiles as the primary weapon. Any idea what system they are going to use? SEWACO?

If that turn out not to be true...then clearly, the comments regarding them are meaningless outside of "what if". If they turn out to be true, then these vessels, IMHO, would be a very capable multi-role vessel, including area air coverage.

Anyhow, that was the basis for those comments.

Well, it now seems to turn out that I was too enthusiastic too fast, and my earlier doubts were justified.

I also did not exspect the F-125 to get such a heavy load at first. But thought it will be a rather cheap ship to hunt down pirates in boats.

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Having read a press release by the MoD and the navy, my exspectations are lower again.
These are saying the F125 are to equip the stabilizing forces - between the intervention and support forces in our new structure. Wich would put them in low-medium intensity conflicts.
Also the task was not to integrate everything technicly possible, but just what is needed by the set requirements.
They all talk about leading task-forces and network centric warfare. But in scenarios like evacuation, patrols, asymmetric threats etc. Delivering special forces and supporting them with the gun.
It's nice to have all these capabilities, but if you already buy such a platform, why not put some missiles on it.
Maybe someone in the process thought well about it and made sure that a VLS can be retrofitted rather easily.


Is a 14 month old press release saying the firm has been chosen to supply the command & control and weapons deployment system. I think that's also already part of the F124 and K130 overall package, so I'm not sure if SEWACO will also be there, given that no AAW capability is planned.

Hi Jeff,

Jeff Head said:

Thanks for the info, and for the, as always, GREAT graphics.

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Thanks for the praise. BTW did you see this especially for you?

Jeff Head said:

I know that historically there has been no mention of a VLS, that's why I was somewhat surprised by this thread. My comments were based on the information contained in this thread which indicated a 48 cell MK-41 outfitted with ESSM and SM-2.

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I know. Since no one posted the official line regarding the armament I wanted to clear things up.

Jeff Head said:

Any idea what system they are going to use? SEWACO?

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No SEWACO for F125 I am afraid. All other ships will be upgraded with that system but the contract for the F125 CMS was given to Atlas Electronic that is a new subsidiary of TKMS and therefor "more" German than Thales Deutschland that is a subsidiary of Thales. 80 % of the 2.6 billion Euros will go to German companies.

Jeff Head said:

If they turn out to be true, then these vessels, IMHO, would be a very capable multi-role vessel, including area air coverage.

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If you ask me, I´d like them to get 32 cells for 32 quad-packed ESSM and up to 24 Scalp Naval (much like the FREMM) but I´d be glad to settle for the ESSM only.

Scratch said:

Having read a press release by the MoD and the navy, my exspectations are lower again.......stabilizing forces......Which would put them in low-medium intensity conflicts.

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That was the mission from the start and has not changed since than.

Scratch said:

Also the task was not to integrate everything technicly possible, but just what is needed by the set requirements......It's nice to have all these capabilities, but if you already buy such a platform, why not put some missiles on it.

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My guess is that the CMS will be pretty complex and very much "everything technicly possible". From a programmers point of view there is not much difference in shifting through data gathered by sophisticated air / surface search radars of a AAW destroyer and deciding what to do and shifting through an equal number of EO and surface search radars and deciding when to act non-lethally and when not to.

Scratch said:

I'm not sure if SEWACO will also be there, given that no AAW capability is planned.

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There is no real connection between SEWACO and an AAW capability of the platform. Both F122 and F123 will get an SEWACO based CMS during there next refit. However SEWACO is a Thales product and for F125 they were not chosen.

Regards.

MConrads said:

If you ask me, I´d like them to get 32 cells for 32 quad-packed ESSM and up to 24 Scalp Naval (much like the FREMM) but I´d be glad to settle for the ESSM only.

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Do you mean ESSM and Scalp in the same VLS? It seems so. However, I think SN doesn't fit into the Mk41, and if the US would allow ESSM into another VLS?
If we decide to go that way, wich would not a bad idea at all, I would say let's get completely european and put SYLVER VLS and Asters there. Well, multipacked Aster-15 would here help alot of course.
Are the eight Harpoons for sure? Maybe VL Harpoons would also do a good job, since I see the field of heavy LACMs as the best point were compromises could be made.

My guess is that the CMS will be pretty complex and very much "everything technicly possible"...

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Open architecture and all that. As I said, hopefully someone though about later upgrades.

That's conflicting reports then. The french have said their scalp navale will be able to fit into mk41. One has to note though that scalp navale is a different missile from regular scalp. Different body, somewhat different wings and control surfaces, more fuel... i'm not sure about the engine, it could be the same... i think the only thing that will be the same on future scalps and scalp navale is warhead and sensor/guidance section. Then again, that's probably 80% of the cost of the whole missile.

Totoro said:

That's conflicting reports then. The french have said their scalp navale will be able to fit into mk41.

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Ok, then I'm probably corrected on that issue. SN on the ship would be a really nice feature.

Hi,

Scratch said:

Do you mean ESSM and Scalp in the same VLS? It seems so.

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I did. Why not, Germany paid for the NSSM integration into the mk-41 vls almost all by itself for the F123 class. Politically that might be a problem (US and French agreement) so I wouldn´t mind two different sets of vls as well, say 8 mk-41 for ESSM and 16 Sylver A-70 for Scalp Naval.

Scratch said:

I would say let's get completely european and put SYLVER VLS and Asters there. Well, multipacked Aster-15 would here help alot of course.

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The last is out of the question since the booster is too wide. Redesigning the booster is a mayor task and would negate many of the production (and price) advantages in the Aster 15/30 package. As for going all European I think that train passed when the Europeans could agree an a common AAW system after the NRF-90 debacle. For the limited funds and platforms of the German Navy to buy Aster on top of ESSM and SM-2 would be unwise.

Scratch said:

Are the eight Harpoons for sure? Maybe VL Harpoons would also do a good job, since I see the field of heavy LACMs as the best point were compromises could be made.

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As sure as one can be based on the scarce information policy up until now. VL Harpoon was never fully developed (and wont be without the willingness and the need of the USN) in the foreseeable future. Besides I wouldn´t consider it a heavy cruise missile. Besides if at least we could agree an Scalp Naval for land attack, I think reused Harpoons would be adequate for the beginning. In reality I place my bet on the further developed RBS labeled mk-4.

Totoro said:

The french have said their scalp navale will be able to fit into mk41.

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And I cann´t see why it should not fit. The strike length module for the mk-41 vls is 303 in (or 7,69m) in length and the Sylver A-70 will be 7m in length. Though I don´t know the diameter of the systems I remember that both are quiet equal.

Regards.