Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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Hadoren

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adiru said:
When I put forth the idea months ago of China giving Taiwan independence in return for TSMC, everyone jumped at me. Turns out US will take TSMC for itself, moving the plants state side after cutting China off.

Is this the end of China???
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I think the TSMC factory offer is a good thing.

Right now there’s a carrot and stick approach to the American sanction on Huawei and TSMC.

China offers the stick of an export ban on PPE.

TSMC offers the carrot of building a factory in America so America allows it to continue producing for Huawei. If America doesn’t allow them to do that, TSMC won’t build (or will delay) the factory.

You need a carrot and stick. Previously China only offered a stick. Now TSMC offers a carrot.
 
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adiru

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Hadoren said:
I think the TSMC factory offer is a good thing.

Right now there’s a carrot and stick approach to the American sanction on Huawei and TSMC.

China offers the stick of an export ban on PPE.

TSMC offers the carrot of building a factory in America so America allows it to continue producing for Huawei. If America doesn’t allow them to do that, TSMC won’t build (or will delay) the factory.

You need a carrot and stick. Previously China only offered a stick. Now TSMC offers a carrot.
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This is predicated upon the assumption that CCP and Taiwan are more or less coordinating this somehow, but this doesn't appear to be the case at all...

Right now it seems US and its vassal Taiwan are doing a double tap to the back of China's head...
 
ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

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@tidalwave Excellent! You think they'll hit an economic wall at 5nm pretty much now, I think they'll hit a physical wall at ~0.7nm 10-15 years from now. I hope I'm wrong and you're right, but the important thing is that they hit a wall. It doesn't matter if China takes longer to catch up, China's been behind since the PRC was founded. It's made excellent progress in closing the gap in a bewildering range of technologies, so what if it takes a few more years to close it in this technology. Once the target stops moving, China will catch up in the blink of an eye.

Since you're the closest thing we have to a technical expert, I'd like to hear your opinion on why China chose to go with DPP rather than LPP for the EUV light source and when you think China will be able to get a domestic first-generation EUV lithography machine to fabs like SMIC.
 
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tidalwave

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ZeEa5KPul said:
@tidalwave Excellent! You think they'll hit an economic wall at 5nm pretty much now, I think they'll hit a physical wall at ~0.7nm 10-15 years from now. I hope I'm wrong and you're right, but the important thing is that they hit a wall. It doesn't matter if China takes longer to catch up, China's been behind since the PRC was founded. It's made excellent progress in closing the gap in a bewildering range of technologies, so what if it takes a few more years to close it in this technology. Once the target stops moving, China will catch up in the blink of an eye.

Since you're the closest thing we have to a technical expert, I'd like to hear your opinion on why China chose to go with DPP rather than LPP for the EUV light source and when you think China will be able to get a domestic first-generation EUV lithography machine to fabs like SMIC.
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DPP is way easier to implement . it doesnt require those giant laser system for EUV like cymer and gigaphoton produced .
DPP is less efficient in energy conversion therefore less EUV light produced and less through put.

In earlier thread i already pointed out China can bypassed by hooking up the fabs next to particle physics synchrotron facility which generate huge amount of EUV light. A synchrontron facility can supply several EUV fabs. This is an option if it cant produce the type of laser system requires.
 
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adiru

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tidalwave said:
DPP is way easier to implement . it doesnt require those giant laser system for EUV like cymer and gigaphoton produced .
DPP is less efficient in energy conversion therefore less EUV light produced and less through put.

In earlier thread i already pointed out China can bypassed by hooking up the fabs next to particle physics synchrotron facility which generate huge amount of EUV light. A synchrontron facility can supply several EUV fabs. This is an option if it cant produce the type of laser system requires.
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China should have listened to you a year ago, turns out all your predictions come true...

why they not taking massive action on this yet?!
 
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tidalwave

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adiru said:
China should have listened to you a year ago, turns out all your predictions come true...

why they not taking massive action on this yet?!
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Obviously US government technical moves against huawei have been advised by US semiconductor industry experts.
I have been in the industry for a while now so whatever they possibly do, i already can anticipate years ago.

China traditionally is mostly reactive , not so much proactive. It doesnt go to great length to do things in anticipation. Hopefully it will serve as kick to the butt for greater action.
 
ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
tidalwave said:
DPP is way easier to implement . it doesnt require those giant laser system for EUV like cymer and gigaphoton produced .
DPP is less efficient in energy conversion therefore less EUV light produced and less through put.

In earlier thread i already pointed out China can bypassed by hooking up the fabs next to particle physics synchrotron facility which generate huge amount of EUV light. A synchrontron facility can supply several EUV fabs. This is an option if it cant produce the type of laser system requires.
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But synchrotrons aren't set up to gather that light. How quickly can they be retrofitted to do that?
 
ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
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tidalwave said:
I dont see any technical roadblock.
Chancun Optical institite.should be able to handle that which is part of current EUV project collaboration.
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Excellent. It would have some logistical difficulties since the fab would have to be set up directly beside the synchrotron (I don't believe UV can be transported with fibre optic cables, but perhaps I'm mistaken about that). It's certainly a very interesting proposal.
 
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