Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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Phead128

Phead128

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@tidalwave I heard China started 14nm production already (SMIC specifically) which is incredible given China was just farming, now it can catch-up so quickly.

SMIC is buying ASML's EUV tech for 7nm or 5nm production, but getting hold-up/delayed. Do you think China can achieve EUV independence in the future and not rely on ASML? Are there efforts underway to do that? I'm not sure how susceptible ASML is to US pressure.
 
localizer

localizer

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Phead128 said:
@tidalwave I heard China started 14nm production already (SMIC specifically) which is incredible given China was just farming, now it can catch-up so quickly.

SMIC is buying ASML's EUV tech for 7nm or 5nm production, but getting hold-up/delayed. Do you think China can achieve EUV independence in the future and not rely on ASML? Are there efforts underway to do that? I'm not sure how susceptible ASML is to US pressure.
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Pretty sure China will never get its hands on ASML's equipment.
 
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tidalwave

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Phead128 said:
@tidalwave I heard China started 14nm production already (SMIC specifically) which is incredible given China was just farming, now it can catch-up so quickly.

SMIC is buying ASML's EUV tech for 7nm or 5nm production, but getting hold-up/delayed. Do you think China can achieve EUV independence in the future and not rely on ASML? Are there efforts underway to do that? I'm not sure how susceptible ASML is to US pressure.
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Actually SMIC already come out with 12nm for customer trial.
And its possible they can extend down to 10nm with current equipment.


Mainly ASML uses US's Cymer for its EUV light generation. Therefore it's liable to be banned by US.
What China can do is start to build EUV lithography equipment first by using Germany and Japan component.
The main one is EUV light generation can use Japanese Gigaphoton product and Optics use Germany Cal Zeiss.
Either that or ask ASML to switch to japanese light source. Bascially custom build one for China and bypass any US components.

Then China can slowly try to master the EUV light generation technology and EUV optics.
 
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tidalwave

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China best potential candidate involved in EUV optics would be Changchun Institute of Optics, Fine Mechanics and Physics, Chinese Academy of Science, They made specialized mirrors for China Satellite.

5b7cfa40a310add1c6981033.jpeg


Researchers of Changchun Institute of Optics, Fine Mechanics and Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences carefully examine the silicon carbide mirror, Aug 21, 2018. [Photo/Chinanews.com]

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After 15 years of exploration and nine years of research, scientists at Changchun Institute of Optics, Fine Mechanics and Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences successfully developed the world's largest aspherical silicon carbide (SiC) optical mirror - a high-precision SiC aspherical mirror with a diameter of 4.03 meters, Chinanews.com reported.

China owns all intellectual property rights of the core manufacturing equipment and techniques of the mirror, and it can be widely used in fields such as astronomical telescopes and spacecrafts, marking that China currently has the world-leading state-of-the-art technologies of large-diameter SiC aspherical optical mirrors.

Europe and US have long held monopoly in the manufacturing technology of large diameter SiC optical mirrors, so China had to develop the techniques independently, said Zhang Xuejun, deputy director at the institute, also the person in charge of the project.

Experts said the successful development of the integrated manufacturing system of the mirror and the independent ability of R&D will be gradually applied to various types of large optical equipment.

In this way, China will leapfrog in the manufacturing technology of large-caliber optical mirrors and greatly improve the development of large high-performance optical instruments in the nation.

Zhang said four-meter SiC aspherical reflectors will be used in major national engineering projects. At the same time, the project will continue to be applied to a number of national major basic research and engineering projects, such as the multi-functional optical facility of China's space station, and other key national R&D programs.
 
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tidalwave

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The candidate for EUV light generation would be institute of electronics, chinese academy of science. IECAS, english.ie.cas.cn
as it has experiences in developing high power CO2 gas laser and semiconductor diode laser.

SMEE,shanghai has the wafer stepper technology as it has optical lithography product for 90nm , the only kind of product in mainland.

so, combining Chancun institute of Optics, institute of electronics, and SMEE to form the group to tackle the EUV lithograph equipment.
 
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tidalwave

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right now, US government's goal is to kill Huawei. No agreement on trade US can live. It cooking some schemes now to control foreign firms in supplying to Huawei. TSMC is a big target.

How can China government can fend off this?

The threat of complete ban of US components in China market unless US government back off from Huawei. That's only viable option I can think of.
 
coolieno99

coolieno99

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tidalwave said:
China best potential candidate involved in EUV optics would be Changchun Institute of Optics, Fine Mechanics and Physics, Chinese Academy of Science, They made specialized mirrors for China Satellite.

5b7cfa40a310add1c6981033.jpeg


Researchers of Changchun Institute of Optics, Fine Mechanics and Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences carefully examine the silicon carbide mirror, Aug 21, 2018. [Photo/Chinanews.com]

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After 15 years of exploration and nine years of research, scientists at Changchun Institute of Optics, Fine Mechanics and Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences successfully developed the world's largest aspherical silicon carbide (SiC) optical mirror - a high-precision SiC aspherical mirror with a diameter of 4.03 meters, Chinanews.com reported.

China owns all intellectual property rights of the core manufacturing equipment and techniques of the mirror, and it can be widely used in fields such as astronomical telescopes and spacecrafts, marking that China currently has the world-leading state-of-the-art technologies of large-diameter SiC aspherical optical mirrors.

Europe and US have long held monopoly in the manufacturing technology of large diameter SiC optical mirrors, so China had to develop the techniques independently, said Zhang Xuejun, deputy director at the institute, also the person in charge of the project.

Experts said the successful development of the integrated manufacturing system of the mirror and the independent ability of R&D will be gradually applied to various types of large optical equipment.

In this way, China will leapfrog in the manufacturing technology of large-caliber optical mirrors and greatly improve the development of large high-performance optical instruments in the nation.

Zhang said four-meter SiC aspherical reflectors will be used in major national engineering projects. At the same time, the project will continue to be applied to a number of national major basic research and engineering projects, such as the multi-functional optical facility of China's space station, and other key national R&D programs.
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coolieno99

coolieno99

Junior Member
It's interesting how they are using SiC as a material in making mirrors. They also use SiC ceramic matrix composites to make ball bearings for rocket engine turbo-pumps(LM-5). It can withstand high temperature and high rotation speed(up to 65,000 rpm).
 
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styx

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tidalwave said:
right now, US government's goal is to kill Huawei. No agreement on trade US can live. It cooking some schemes now to control foreign firms in supplying to Huawei. TSMC is a big target.

How can China government can fend off this?

The threat of complete ban of US components in China market unless US government back off from Huawei. That's only viable option I can think of.
Click to expand...

if tsmc doesn't sell to huawei i think it will probably fail. No way
 
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tidalwave

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styx said:
if tsmc doesn't sell to huawei i think it will probably fail. No way
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So be it! If Huawei cannot get those leading edge chips it's business would suffer. China now has 14/12nm so Huawei will retain its medium high end business. It won't completely fail!

China would completely ban all US components into China. Won't allow US strategy of picking off its best company and leave alone the weaker ones and have them continue to buy US chips.

The complete Ban would spawn a radical transformation



Huawei would switch gear and expand itself also into fundamental science company like an applied material, Carl Zeiss, Lam research, Komatsu..etc.

At the same time Huawei would get into chip manufacturing like a Samsung. First licensing from SMIC. Huawei will get involved in both chip manufacturing and lithography development. This way it will control it's own destiny in the future.
 
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