Future PLAAF fleet procurement and composition

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
Well J-35As are said to have similar combat ranges to early Flankers so range should really be no issue. While still being able to bring the same amount of A2A armament as J-20s minus dogfight missiles which are of questionable utility these days anyways.

AFAIK, the radar on the J-35A isn't even that small either. It's bigger than F-35's array with probably more power and cooling available with WS-19s.

It is pretty disingenuous to dismiss the J-35A as simply a point defense fighter.
 

kentchang

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well J-35As are said to have similar combat ranges to early Flankers so range should really be no issue. While still being able to bring the same amount of A2A armament as J-20s minus dogfight missiles which are of questionable utility these days anyways.

AFAIK, the radar on the J-35A isn't even that small either. It's bigger than F-35's array with probably more power and cooling available with WS-19s.

It is pretty disingenuous to dismiss the J-35A as simply a point defense fighter.

All your points are very valid but I still agree with the assessment that the J-35A will be procured in relatively small numbers. Say <200 to replace the legacy J-10A/Bs. The J-10 was developed when China was focused on homeland defense and a cost-effective single-engined fighter allowed China to fill out its ORBAT while gentle on the PLAAF budget back then. Now China's need for 'light' fighters is much less. Future homeland/point defense needs can be met by drones, satellites, and missiles while the Pacific is vast so the heavy lifting/force projection must be done by heavy weight fighters.

The J-35A is a most beautiful plane and for the PLAAF, very extravagant for such domestic roles but it serves a very powerful political/soft power message as only super powers can afford such luxury. The J-35A intro timing is also awkward and does not allow a very long production run before the 6th gen planes take over the budget and the assembly space in the early 2030s.
 
All your points are very valid but I still agree with the assessment that the J-35A will be procured in relatively small numbers. Say <200 to replace the legacy J-10A/Bs. The J-10 was developed when China was focused on homeland defense and a cost-effective single-engined fighter allowed China to fill out its ORBAT while gentle on the PLAAF budget back then. Now China's need for 'light' fighters is much less. Future homeland/point defense needs can be met by drones, satellites, and missiles while the Pacific is vast so the heavy lifting/force projection must be done by heavy weight fighters.
Agree in principle, but 1) given Flanker production winding down, Shenyang's factories need orders until Shenyang's 6th gen and UCAVs begin to be produced at scale (considering the massive expansions to Shenyang's production facilities in recent years) and 2) J-35A is not in same class as J-10 - its range is closer to that of a Flanker than J-10 and exceed that of any American 5th generation fighter, 200 is probably too conservative of a number.
 

Tomboy

Captain
Registered Member
All your points are very valid but I still agree with the assessment that the J-35A will be procured in relatively small numbers. Say <200 to replace the legacy J-10A/Bs. The J-10 was developed when China was focused on homeland defense and a cost-effective single-engined fighter allowed China to fill out its ORBAT while gentle on the PLAAF budget back then. Now China's need for 'light' fighters is much less. Future homeland/point defense needs can be met by drones, satellites, and missiles while the Pacific is vast so the heavy lifting/force projection must be done by heavy weight fighters.

The J-35A is a most beautiful plane and for the PLAAF, very extravagant for such domestic roles but it serves a very powerful political/soft power message as only super powers can afford such luxury. The J-35A intro timing is also awkward and does not allow a very long production run before the 6th gen planes take over the budget and the assembly space in the early 2030s.
I don't think 6th generation fighters will be inducted in huge numbers any time soon. There'll always be a need for filler aircraft to keep your fleet active, I believe J-35As will be that filler for the next decade or so given that there is still a huge amount of 4th generation aircraft that need replacing in the next 10 years as well and interest to mildly expand the fleet.

J-35 really shouldn't be called a light fighter or even medium fighter given the A version's MTOW of a rumored ~29t while the naval J-35 probably exceeds 30t in MTOW. For reference the original F-15Cs only have a MTOW of 30t which is ironically similar to that of J-35A. In essence, J-35 family is really more of a super sized medium fighter if not straight up a heavy fighter by legacy standards with a similarly powerful engine to go with it.

It also has a deeper bay than J-20 and a 360 EOTS which allows it to perform genuine multirole missions unlike the original J-20s with very limited A2G capability. This is especially important as the retirement of 4th generation platforms will create of gap for multirole fighters which the J-35A fills very well.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
The J-35A is a most beautiful plane and for the PLAAF, very extravagant for such domestic roles but it serves a very powerful political/soft power message as only super powers can afford such luxury. The J-35A intro timing is also awkward and does not allow a very long production run before the 6th gen planes take over the budget and the assembly space in the early 2030s.
Even if 6th gen enters production in the early 2030s it’ll take a few years before that production ramps up, which means the J-35A will still have roughly a decade of relevant runway. That’s a pretty sizable production run, especially if there’s intent to grow the fighter fleet. If production of J-35A is 50 a year for 10 years that’s 500 aircraft, about the same size as the current J-10 and J-16 fleets.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Even if 6th gen enters production in the early 2030s it’ll take a few years before that production ramps up, which means the J-35A will still have roughly a decade of relevant runway. That’s a pretty sizable production run, especially if there’s intent to grow the fighter fleet. If production of J-35A is 50 a year for 10 years that’s 500 aircraft, about the same size as the current J-10 and J-16 fleets.
Not only that, J-35 is a fairly light class plane, compared to even the lighter of the two 6th gen planes. So there may be room for it even after SAC's plane is in full volume production.
 

Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
In the meantime, what's your prospective view on the induction timeline and scale progression of the tactical-domain, MUMT-type UAVs (if subdivided into strike (GJ-11/21), low-tier (UADF-C/D/E), and high-tier (UADF-A/B/F) categories)?

I don't really have an estimate for that tbh, it's way too much of a wildcard


I overall liked your assessment on the 4th gen and J-20 production. But I do not think China will produce that many J-35. Especially J-35A, the land version.

The biggest reason being that J-35 is a smaller plane with lower range than the J-20. For China to fight against the likes of Japan, India and US naval fighters, they need long range and large fighters. Flankers, JH-7 and J-20 fit this, but J-35 do not.

J-20 can also fit bigger radar and sensors and more suitable for BVR and drone control.

The need for smaller point defense fighter can be fulfilled by the CCAs.

I think this is the reason PLAAF did not pickup J-31 for almost a decade. They didnt think it fits their needs.

They eventually picked up J-35A but likely reluctantly to boost its export potential.

I think J-35A procurement will be smaller and more focus will be on J-20S production.

As others have said, J-35A is not a small aircraft, it has Flanker class combat radius and a similar BVR load to J-20 family, and in terms of dimensions approaches the F-22 as well rather than F-35.


One thing I haven’t seen any of the comments address is potential wartime attrition. As per Yankeesama’s talkshow they are accounting for attrition during latest production of Type 055. No reason to think that they aren’t doing the same for combat aircraft.

Tbh I don't think that needs to be addressed. The fact that Yankee even addressed it directly is a little bit annoying, because it goes without saying that all procurement accounts for wartime attrition to a degree.
 

siegecrossbow

Field Marshall
Staff member
Super Moderator
Well J-35As are said to have similar combat ranges to early Flankers so range should really be no issue. While still being able to bring the same amount of A2A armament as J-20s minus dogfight missiles which are of questionable utility these days anyways.

AFAIK, the radar on the J-35A isn't even that small either. It's bigger than F-35's array with probably more power and cooling available with WS-19s.

It is pretty disingenuous to dismiss the J-35A as simply a point defense fighter.
It’s always foolish to based combat range on the size of the aircraft. F-35 for instance has greater combat range and radius than the F-22 despite a pretty large disparity in size.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
It’s always foolish to based combat range on the size of the aircraft. F-35 for instance has greater combat range and radius than the F-22 despite a pretty large disparity in size.
The F-22 is a bit overrated in the sense that it reflects structural engineering design and capabilities from the 90s that never got updated. You can probably get more out of that volume today than what the F-22 had achieved by the time production stopped.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
On the "notional manned fighter production" projection front, this is my own personal quick and dirty estimate between 2026 to 2033.

The graph below is somewhat self explanatory, and divides between 4.5th gen, 5th gen and 6th gen manned aircraft. There are a few assumptions that go into it.

View attachment 170294

First is breakdown of types:
4.5th gen aircraft = J-16D, J-15T, J-15DT types
5th gen aircraft = J-20A, J-20S, J-35, J-35A
6th gen aircraft = J-36 and J-XDS

Second, is the "demand for 4.5th gen airframes". As you can see, between 2026 to 2030 there will "only" be a total of 200x 4.5th gen aircraft procured. The assumptions which underlie this are broken down as follows:
- J-15Ts will aim to be able to populate 2x STOBAR + 3x CATOBAR carriers (i.e.: the number of carriers they'll have in operation probably by 2032) making up half a carrier's total fighter airwing (other half being J-35s by footprint size). So that's 12x J-15Ts per STOBAR, 24x J-15Ts per CATOBAR, and that number is then multiplied by 1.5 to account for spares, attrition, etc. (12x2 + 24 x3) x 1.5 gets us 144 (let's call it 150) J-15Ts. I assume that currently there are 40 J-15Ts in existence, so that leaves about 100ish J-15Ts to be built between now and 2030.
- J-15DTs will be a bit more niche, but again to populate 2x STOBAR and 3x CATOBAR carriers, let's say 3x J-15DT per STOBAR and 6x J-15DT per CATOBAR, and again multiplied by 1.5, so.... (3x2 + 6x3) x 1.5 gets us 36 jets, let's call it 40 J-15DTs to be clean, and let's add another 10 J-15DTs to be able to support another carrier circa 2035 onwards in case it takes them time to develop a J-35 or navalized J-XDS derived EW jet, for a requirement of 50 airframes. If we assume they have 5x J-15DTs in existence currently, that's 45 J-15DTs to add to the 100 or so J-15Ts
- Then for J-16Ds, it's a bit more tricky, but if we assume they have a PLAAF wide requirement for 100 J-16Ds, and that if we assume they've got 40 such airframes built currently, then that's another 60 J-16Ds to add.

So in total, the "demand for 4.5th gen airframes" between 2026 and 2030 would be around 200 airframes (100x J-15T, 60x J-16D, 45x J-15DT). Now obviously the numbers can be played around with a bit (for example, if one makes the PLAAF's J-16D fleet requirement to be 150 rather than 100 total), but overall a 200+ 4.5th gen airframe requirement from now seems reasonable to me.


Third is the 5th gen build rate. One has to somewhat use their imaginations to consider the likely build rates of J-20A/S and J-35/A.
- For J-20A/S, I am assuming in 2025 their production rate was maybe 80-100 aircraft rather than the peak of 120 aircraft of 2023/2024, due to retooling to produce J-20A/S from baseline J-20. Going forwards into 2026 onwards, I think a rate of 100-120 aircraft annually could be viable, but I also expect the rate to drop a little bit approaching 2028, as CAC gets ready to build J-36 as well as more CCA/UCAVs. I expect J-20A/S production to continue into the early 2030s, but at only a few dozen per year by then, and to fully cease before 2035. Assuming currently there are 450-500 J-20 family aircraft in service, between 2026 and 2033 I could see them adding some 700-800 airframes, and then between 2033-2035 adding a further 100 before finishing its run, for a total of 1200-1400 J-20s produced across J-20, J-20A and J-20S.
- For J-35/A, I expect them in this year and next to slowly build up production (40 this year, 50 next year), but that full rate production and exploitation of the new production site in particular may not fully kick in until 2028. The exact composition of J-35 vs J-35A can be debated year by year, but I expect J-35 production to meet carrier needs as the new carriers are launched/fitted out in preparation of their service, and J-35A production to take up the rest of the slots, with long term J-35A production numbers likely exceeding that of J-35. I expect annual J-35 and J-35A production to make up an equal the no. of annual J-20A/S by late 2020s, and then outnumber J-20A/S post 2030, and for J-35/A production to continue post 2035 and fully finish a couple years after that. Between 2026-2033 I'd say maybe 760 J-35/A could be built (over half being J-35A), and between 2033 to 2038 another 400-500 could be built before ceasing. Assuming currently there are 40 J-35/A in existence, let's call it 1200-1300 J-35/A built for the PLA overall.... a similar number to the overall J-20/A/S family total.


For 6th gens, I assume that PLAAF will buy J-36 and J-XDS, and PLANAF will buy a notional navalized "J-XDSH".
J-36 and J-XDS may start initial single digit LRIP in 2030, and then slowly build up both types per year into the early 2030s.
A navalized J-XDSH of course is even more speculative; but assuming they want something ready prior to 2035, I could see them flying a navalized J-XDSH prototype before 2028/9, and share common subsystems with the land based J-XDS to expedite development, and enable service entry and production before 2034.
Needless to say, post 2033 into the late 2030s, annual 6th gen production will likely eventually climb to three digit numbers (albeit perhaps not the halcyon 220/yr the 5th gens) as J-35/A production winds down (at this point J-20A/S production would have ceased before 2035) -- but given how much more sophisticated and larger the 6th gen airframes are, that may not be a huge surprise.
Additionally, one will note that the annual fighter production per year in my depiction peaks in 2030/2031 -- that's because I expect the "excess/unused" fighter production capacity at CAC, SAC and others to be utilized for various types of UCAVs and CCAs instead, which of course is not depicted in this graph.

Not displayed is the trend of "old" 4th gen aircraft. Depending on if they seek to maintain current fleet size or greatly expand it, their retirement could start in small numbers anywhere from this year or post 2030.


In any case, the idea of building 300 aircraft per year (with large scale 4.5th gen production between now and early 2030s) seems very unlikely to me. Note, the idea of building 300 aircraft per year, would have those additional 4.5th gen aircraft on top of what I have depicted here.

So by 2035, that would be:

6th Gen: 200+
J-20: 1200-1400
J-35: 900+
J-15/J-16: 600+

That is already 2900+ aircraft, which implies the fleet growing in size by an average of ~100 aircraft per year.

But I think such a 2035 fleet looks too skewed towards 5th/6th Gen aircraft, and there is still a role for 220 J-10C and 220 J-11BG (such as missile trucks, bomb trucks, defensive air, offensive air next to Chinese borders, etc)
 
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