Future PLA combat aircraft composition

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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I don't get these responses, isn't it obvious? They are the foremost military power and have been for a long time. China has been one of the lowest most inconsequential 'powers' (if it even was one) for centuries. China is finally rising, so fast in fact that it has securely displaced everyone except the #1 power.

Why not let people fanboy a little bit in excitement instead of acting like it's weird or unprofessional.

You've just answered the question yourself (bolded).



On another note, if you are to remove emotion from the equation and talk purely about objectively ascertaining future numbers of X or Y (which is what we're doing), I don't see why they wouldn't be similar in composition and quantity. If China would really go for the same number of carriers as the US, I don't see why they wouldn't have a similar number of anything, until you adjust for radically different strategic and mission objectives or differing designs, which we haven't done as there is no indication of that.

So on the one hand, it's fun to compare to the #1 power when you consider where China was only 20 years ago (let alone the last 200), but on another note it's also relevant since China seems to be modeling itself on the US in many ways when it concerns its military. In our arguments we are assuming that will continue to be the case, with the only difference being the America/Wasp equivalents in the Type 075/076 might not have VTOLs (so naturally it fills in that hole, with fixed-wing UCAVs).

Who the hell knows, maybe China will eventually produce a 5th Gen VTOL in a decade in low numbers, as a variant of the J-XY or something else. And if it does then the USN/USMC quantity and composition of aircraft will be pretty much the same, in which case you could posit that China will have over 1,200-1,300 5th and 4th Gen combat aircraft, including EW, on carriers and assault ships, including shore-based aircraft which have the capability to join carriers or the amphibious assault ships.

As for now, removing the assault ship contingent, assuming similar composition of the carriers alone, I think the total numbers of combat aircraft would be closer to 1,000. If you are including UCAVs for the assault ships then I would assume roughly an equal or slightly higher amount than the equivalent number of 5th Gen USMC aircraft on their own ships, so the total would be 1,500 or so for China.

I would be surprised if a 5th generation VSTOL fighter is developed. I do not include it as any part of my future projections.

As for the CATOBAR airwing, I've already given you my own personal estimated numbers at this point, I have little else to add.

Frankly, projecting things like carrier fleet size and carrier airwing composition as far out as 2042 is already near the edge of what I consider for myself to be useful projections based on my own personal standards.
The only reason I indulged in it in this case, is because these projections would have informed the number of carrier based J-XY I envisioned the PLAN buying which in turn was consequential for the viability of a land based J-XY variant for the PLAAF as well, which was the original topic of discussion.

I am less interested in brute number comparisons for the sake of it.
If a projected future air fleet size requirement happens to approach, meet or exceed the air fleet size of the USN or USMC, fine, whatever.
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
If a projected future air fleet size requirement happens to approach, meet or exceed the air fleet size of the USN or USMC, fine, whatever.
You've just answered the question yourself (bolded).

Hardly. I answered why you might, but I asked why go out of your way to consider it in that way, and gave you the proper context as to why people might do it.

Then twice I made the point that this was not what I was doing anyway (even though in a different context I certainly would). Don't be too annoyed if Chinese or fans of China enjoy watching the country catch up and eventually surpass the civilization which formerly tried to enslave it and the rest of humanity.

We are not all interested in military watching or this forum purely out of some unemotional academic curiosity. Some of us actually get excited/happy/emotional to see China achieving something, or yes even surpassing another country like the US. That won't change.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Hardly. I answered why you might, but I asked why go out of your way to consider it in that way, and gave you the proper context as to why people might do it.

Then twice I made the point that this was not what I was doing anyway (even though in a different context I certainly would). Don't be too annoyed if Chinese or fans of China enjoy watching the country catch up and eventually surpass the civilization which formerly tried to enslave it and the rest of humanity.

We are not all interested in military watching or this forum purely out of some unemotional academic curiosity. Some of us actually get excited/happy/emotional to see China achieving something, or yes even surpassing another country like the US. That won't change.

I can only interpret what you write.
The fact that you doubled down and defended these comparisons of total air fleet numbers and expressing such concern over potential differences of a couple of hundred aircraft, after I asked why they were of any useful relevance, suggests to me that you are indeed enthused over the potential of the future PLAN having a total air fleet size that is comparable in size with the USN+USMC.

That's fine.
You can express your excitement or enthusiasm in however you want with regards to PLA watching.


But I will also criticize the opinions and statements of others as I see appropriate -- and I will reiterate that I think a preoccupation with comparing total air fleet size numbers in isolation, is not very productive.
Don't take it personally. I just take a dim view of brute number comparisons in any domain in isolation. If someone expressed a preoccupation with matching USN destroyers one for one, or matching US fighter aircraft one for one, or matching US strategic transport aircraft one for one, I would criticize those comparisons for similar reason.
Projecting future procurement/fleet size should be done in context of projected future requirements. Whether it is lower/similar in size/larger than the fleet size of the US should not affect our assessments of them based on judgement of strategic requirements.
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
I can only interpret what you write.
The fact that you doubled down and defended these comparisons of total air fleet numbers and expressing such concern over potential differences of a couple of hundred aircraft, after I asked why they were of any useful relevance, suggests to me that you are indeed enthused over the potential of the future PLAN having a total air fleet size that is comparable in size with the USN+USMC.

That's fine.
You can express your excitement or enthusiasm in however you want with regards to PLA watching.


But I will also criticize the opinions and statements of others as I see appropriate -- and I will reiterate that I think a preoccupation with comparing total air fleet size numbers in isolation, is not very productive.
Don't take it personally. I just take a dim view of brute number comparisons in any domain in isolation. If someone expressed a preoccupation with matching USN destroyers one for one, or matching US fighter aircraft one for one, or matching US strategic transport aircraft one for one, I would criticize those comparisons for similar reason.
Projecting future procurement/fleet size should be done in context of projected future requirements. Whether it is lower/similar in size/larger than the fleet size of the US should not affect our assessments of them based on judgement of strategic requirements.

That's fair. I can see your perspective.

Thanks.
 

caohailiang

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting conversation you guys had, i thank you for that. i get the logic from both of you but just one question: what is the base of projecting PLAN will have 10 or 11 carriers in 2040 timeframe? i am sorry if the rationale has been discussed earlier somewhere in the forum.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
It's all about the needs. If and when the need is to operate up to the first island chain, that particular mission set doesn't need any carriers. Some may be had, of course, but probably for different missions sets, primarily.

If the need is to operate up to second island chain, then several carriers would be quite prudent and beneficial.
If taking the islands of the second island chain is the need - then a big carrier fleet would be very welcome, as persistent air coverage would be very much needed. The exact number there is of course hard to define, but may approach the number of USN in the local vicinity.

If the need is to go out to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, then China would most likely need MORE carriers/carrier borne planes than the USN, due to the fact the US still has some middle of the Ocean bases while China has none (other than those 2nd island chain bases it might conquer)

But all that becomes muddled the moment one tries to go into a system vs system fight. Various asymmetric warfare systems (of which submarines are just one) would make it quite hard to come to a precise figure of carriers/planes needed. In which case, as it was always throughout the history of war - the commanders and planners likely rely on the axioms - the more the better. Better safe than sorry. Etc etc.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Interesting conversation you guys had, i thank you for that. i get the logic from both of you but just one question: what is the base of projecting PLAN will have 10 or 11 carriers in 2040 timeframe? i am sorry if the rationale has been discussed earlier somewhere in the forum.

It was not mentioned in this specific thread, however it does relate to some of my own personal theories/assessments of the aim of overall PLA air-naval operations in the western pacific and pacific at large.

I wrote about it in more detail in a post, some time ago in the past in this thread:


The number of carriers to be procured as a long term "steady state" is based on assumptions of the deployment pattern the PLA would seek for their carriers (i.e.: most being primarily kept in westpac/home waters during peacetime to enable surge capability during periods of high tension or conflict) -- but it essentially can be reduced to the need to be able to qualitatively match while quantitatively outnumber the number of carriers that the US would be able to bring to a westpac conflict in a short term surge period.
PLAN carrier groups of course would be operating in context of the massively enhanced PLAAF capabilities of the era as well as PLARF and other PLAN domains (surface, subsurface forces).
However the role of carrier groups in providing organic, mobile fixed wing ISR and CAP and strike capabilities to enable the rest of the joint force (land based PLAAF and PLARF) to operate more effectively to identify, track and destroy projected regional fixed (land based) and mobile (carrier) air fleets as well as naval forces. I view carriers in this doctrine as essentially being fire-maneuver-recon complexes that operate in conjunction with land based air and missile forces to achieve a favourable if not overwhelming correlation of recce and fires in the region.



Of course the many secondary and tertiary capabilities that a carrier offers for conflict scenarios outside of a surge capability in a high intensity conflict in the westpac are also obvious -- e.g.: you require fully capable, through and well defended CSGs if the trajectory of a conflict required you to operate further in blue water away from friendly land based support if you were engaging enemy CSGs on equal terms or if you were engaging enemy CSGs as well as enemy land based air assets.
 

caohailiang

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's all about the needs. If and when the need is to operate up to the first island chain, that particular mission set doesn't need any carriers. Some may be had, of course, but probably for different missions sets, primarily.

If the need is to operate up to second island chain, then several carriers would be quite prudent and beneficial.
If taking the islands of the second island chain is the need - then a big carrier fleet would be very welcome, as persistent air coverage would be very much needed. The exact number there is of course hard to define, but may approach the number of USN in the local vicinity.

If the need is to go out to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, then China would most likely need MORE carriers/carrier borne planes than the USN, due to the fact the US still has some middle of the Ocean bases while China has none (other than those 2nd island chain bases it might conquer)

But all that becomes muddled the moment one tries to go into a system vs system fight. Various asymmetric warfare systems (of which submarines are just one) would make it quite hard to come to a precise figure of carriers/planes needed. In which case, as it was always throughout the history of war - the commanders and planners likely rely on the axioms - the more the better. Better safe than sorry. Etc etc.
I always think strategically speaking, China would want to use those navy ships to secure the SLOC toward Europe, Middle East and Africa.
I dont quite understand the need to take islands up to the second island chain or even push to mid of pacific. If it is just to defend the mainland from being attacked, then it seems to be really extreme to me, i mean if that line of thought goes on, it wont stop until reaching the coast of California. Maybe there are other rationale that i didnt get?
 

Blitzo

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I always think strategically speaking, China would want to use those navy ships to secure the SLOC toward Europe, Middle East and Africa.
I dont quite understand the need to take islands up to the second island chain or even push to mid of pacific. If it is just to defend the mainland from being attacked, then it seems to be really extreme to me, i mean if that line of thought goes on, it wont stop until reaching the coast of California. Maybe there are other rationale that i didnt get?

Look at a map of the pacific and relevant air bases and staging areas that the US has in the region, consider the effective combat radii of aircraft operating from CSGs now and into the future (when considering drone based in flight refuelling in particular).
In context of the ability to conduct a conflict in the western pacific, those fixed (land based air bases and naval ports) and mobile (CSGs) capabilities need to be located and neutralized at a minimum, the speed and intensity of which would depend on the way a conflict is conducted and the strategic and political goals of each nation's leadership.

CSGs are of course useful to secure SLOCs to Europe, Middle East, and Africa, but elimination of the most threatening forces would be required first, otherwise you are putting the cart before the horse.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General

On carrier airwing, I think you are not considering two core issues in your numbers projection. The first is operational flexibility and the second is attrition.

If you base your fleet acquisition purely on a proportional scaled-up of what a ‘typical’ peacetime general purpose airwing will look like, you won’t have the ability to mix and match types as specific mission parameters arise.

You also need to build in attrition replacements in combat aircraft numbers because they take years to build and are not items you can easily build to replace wartime looses quickly. This is especially important if there is a good chance your carriers will be fighting near-peer opponents where high combat attrition is likely

Having carriers but no planes to fly off them is the same as having no carriers.

But I think a core part of our disagreement on carrier manned 5th gen numbers also stems from our very different views on what UCAVs would have on air combat in the age of 5th gens.

In this regard, I think I must take issue with some of your fundamental assumptions underpinning your arguments because I just do not find them credible.

Firstly, you list the design features criterial for the kinds of UCAVs you wanted fielded as:
- long range
- high performance (both in terms of sensors, airframe/engines and avionics)
- LVO
- multirole

Yet at the same time you expect them to come out at 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of a manned 5th gen?!

Please sketch out, even in broad terms, just how you expect to attain those design characteristics and achieve that kind of drastic cost reduction.

I also find it highly contradictory that you would list LVO as a key design requirement, yet want to use these drones as active sensor platforms. Why bother with LVO if you just intend to actively emit with them all the time?!

I think even you recognised the major contradictions in your own reasoning, hence this LVO requirement, because without LVO, we are basically taking about something at the same performance as a conventional 4th gen fighters even in ideal circumstances. But we all know you won’t get anything close to the kind of exchange rate you need to make these UCAVs economically viable in such a scenario, which is why you added in LVO to make it so manned 5th gens don’t achieve double digit exchange rates against them. However, by adding LVO, you also make it impossible to achieve anything like the cost savings you need.

That is the core flaw with your calculations and assumptions - either you need top end sensors, engines, LVO and avionics on your UCAVs so they can achieve something like acceptable exchange rates against enemy manned 5th gens (but will end up costing 80-90% what a manned 5th gen will come out as); or you make something to the budget you described but which will be absolutely slaughtered by enemy 5th gens and end up as little more than very expensive missile decoys.

The other fundamental area of difference between us is that you don’t really seem to want to fully factor in the game changing nature of 5th gens on BVR combat.

You seem to be of the opinion that modern ASEA can effectively counter stealth and allow BVR against them like conventional 4th gens when literally no contest between ASEA equipped 4th gens and 5th gens have gone that way. That is even before we take into account the impact of stealth on missile seekers even if you can achieve a lock at BVR ranges.

My view is that given the fact that even against legacy fighters, BVR takes place at far closer rangers than what most people assume, and the massive reduction in detection ranges and missile effectiveness stealth has on radars, it is very unlikely we will see much in the way of BVR kills in a 5th gen v 5th gen scenario.

It is uncharacteristically unsubtle for you to essentially argue for a sheer brute force approach to a problem, whereby your solution to 5th gen is essentially one of human wave tactics in the sky where you throw more planes at the enemy then they have missiles to shoot you down with. At the same time as accepting China is unlikely to match American stealth fighter production numbers.

My solution is to sidestep the primary strength of stealths (radar stealth) and engage them in WVR.

UCAVs will still be important, but I would ditch expensive ASEA and instead use IRSTs as primary sensors.

I will also remove the multirole requirement and have them focus exclusively on AA to further cut down on cost.

IRST with LVO gives you the kind of survivable forward sensor network you want; while also giving at least a chance at achieving worthwhile cost reductions compared to manned fighters (which is still not going to be the 2/3 to 3/4 cost reduction you want). The issue is going to be software, where I don’t think AI will be able to fully compete with manned pilots in WVR for some time to come still. Which is why I don’t think UCAVs will be viable in air combat against 5th gens for at least another generation, and hence why manned 5th gens numbers still matter, especially in the naval arena where there are no geographical limitations stopping them US from bring the entire might of its fleet to bear if it wanted to.

For the next 15-20 years, I see first gen AA UCAVs as loyal wingmen glorified missile magazine extensions for manned fighters, with very limited (by design as well as cost) automatous engagement capabilities.

That may change with a full blown new Cold War arms race as ethical concerns are tossed assigned and investments in military R&D massively accelerated, but we are not there yet, and due to COVID, short of a war, we are unlikely to get there within the next 5-10 years IMO.
 
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