France Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

I believe the US (along with every country) had (and still has, should the occasion rise) the right to flatten an area full of a population that was perfectly willing to take up arms against an occupying force. Under these circumstances, the "civilian" population should no longer be treated as "non-combatants" and instead should be considered "hostile militia". From this viewpoint, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were barracks housing large numbers of enemy combatants and thus their elimination, necessary or not, was justified. And to be honest, the US flattened two cities to save the civilian population of an ENTIRE country the pain of war right outside their homes and also avoided additional US casualties.

That's a tricky thing that directly relates to politics and values when you're talking about populations hostile to an occupying force because all sorts of issues come up as to why the occupying force is there and why is the population hostile.

This ultimately becomes a question of what justifies straight out genocide, colonization, regression of a country/people's development ('bombing back to the stone age'), or forced migration (expect people who are being attacked to sit still?). Simple occupation which doesn't attempt to permanently reshape the occupied population in some way almost never happens because then there is no point in occupying.

In the WW2 case of Japan, they were the aggressors being beaten back but refusing to cease hostilities, so I can see the justification. What about Palestinians resisting Israeli occupation? Israel was founded with Jewish terrorist threats and attacks on Palestinians living there at the time to make them move away. The Israeli government and armed Jewish settlers continue to take over land where Palestinians still live and constantly destroy Palestinian crops and buildings to suppress their development. The Palestinians have responded in all sorts of ways ranging from protests to terrorist attacks to full scale war when supported by other countries. Would Israel be justified in wiping out the Palestinians?
 

delft

Brigadier
Sorry, I do not think so.

First, the Fulejah campaign was not conducted in that manner at all. IMHO, the US should have encircled the City and given a 96 hour deadline for all inhabatants to leave, and for the fighters to surrender or the US would simply have bombed the place and leave no brick standing. We had the power and the ability to do that. If the terrorists would not let people leave, the blood is on their hands. If the people willingly chose to stay, then it on them.

But we did not do that. First we tried to go in too lightly and were held up and had to back out and regroup and go in with larger numbers and more force later...and then it was a bloody, drawn out, house to house urban war that played to the enemy's strengths. Many Americans were killed and a whole lot more injured. We could have and, IMHO, should have, avoided all of that and warned the people to come out, and then leveled the place as an example.

There was no carpet bombing of populations centers in Vietnam. There were, statictically, relativelty few on the field examples of retaliation and retribution that were not ordered or the policy of the command. When we did bomb the North relentlessly...albeit not the population centers, but all of their factories and harbors, and military sites of all kinds, North Vietnam came to the negotiating table and a a very decent cease fire and peace was established for the South. At that point the VC had almost ceased to exiost as any fighting unit (1972), and the US began to a rapid and large draw down. Then, two years later the North violated that agreement and invaded the South...and the US chose to continue withdrawing and the South was defeated.

If a population is actively and willfully involved in aiding, abetting and supporting a fighting force arrayed against you, then halting that abetting, supporting and aiding becomes a military initiative.

The outcomes, when conducted appropriately, and when showing that same poplulation, after its defeat, that your interest is not taking their land or decimating them personally, is clear. Look at the people the US and its allies defeated in World war II and what has become of them. The US poured trillions of dollars of aid and support into those nations after the war, and then more trillions in trade since...and they are among our strongest allies now, and free and prosperous free nations who themselves now are very well armed.

OTOH, when we have not fought wars to win in this manner, the outcomes over the decades is desidedly less positive, IMHO, to all involved.

As General Sherman noted, "War is hell. Best to end it quickly," and decisively.

Now, if a nation takes the land and then slaughters the inhabitants after winning te war, then that is something altogether different and is genocide and is what we fight against, and put down...and punish.
In Indonesia the population was actively and willfully involved in aiding, abetting and supporting the armed forces of the republic against the Dutch aggressors. Do you blame them? What would you do if the US were invaded, as happened in the War of 1812?
In Vietnam the US were actively and willfully involved in sponsoring, aiding, abetting and supporting first the Ngo Dinh Diem dictatorship and, after he was killed, a series of military dictatorships. Do you blame the population for supporting the other side? See for a description of the conduct of the war by the US forces this review of an American book about this war:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
As for Fallujah destroying peoples property as you propose should have happened would also have be a war crime.
And of course however much people are supporting their armed forces as long as they are not armed they are civilians and should not be harmed by their enemies.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Aboard have now the first " Caiman Marine " with ASW kit, very performance ( Sonar Flash ... ), in fact the 8th helo.

27 Order : 13 Trp/Sar ( with a loading ramp ) and 14 with ASW capacity in more.

Now 8 delivered :

33F ( flotilla ) Lanvéoc-Poulmic : 4
31F Hyères : 4

For 2013 : 2/4 delivered.

The second frigate " Normandie " are in service for 2014 and used for testing " MdCN Missile De Croisière Naval ", cruise missile, a different version of SCALP/Storm Shadow with a range of about 1000 km. Identical warhead about 450 kg and metric precision but lenght 6,5 m instead of 5,1 m.

Homeport of Aquitaine it 's Brest, Normandie also the following 4 to Toulon and 3 new at Brest.
After the last 2 FREDA anti-air version for replacement of Cassard class homeport to Toulon.
 
Last edited:

navyreco

Senior Member
[video=youtube;GZkbMVboSvA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GZkbMVboSvA[/video]

French Special Forces were parachuted on the city of Tessalit to take the control of airport.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Just saw this on navy.mil

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


U.S. 5TH FLEET AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY (Feb. 9, 2013) The aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74) and the French navy destroyer FS Chevalier Paul (D621) transit the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility. John C. Stennis is deployed to the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility conducting maritime security operations, theater security cooperation efforts and support missions for Operation Enduring Freedom. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Kenneth Abbate/Released)
 

navyreco

Senior Member
And this is from a French MoD release:

The integration of the Chevalier Paul is another step demonstrating how much the U.S. Navy trusts French Sailors. The French vessel had the responsibility to monitor the airspace above a particularly sensitive area of operations and contributed to the protection of the U.S. aircraft carrier and its crew of more than 5000 sailors.

After a few days of training in the Persian Gulf, U.S. Navy procedures had no secrets for French Navy personnel. Chevalier Paul found its place among the other escorts of the CVBG: the USS Mobile Bay (CG53), Ticonderoga class guided-missile cruiser and USS Winston S. Churchill (DDG-81) Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer. When crossing the Strait of Hormuz February 6, 2013, the French Navy Destroyer held the position usually assigned to a US Navy vessel, at the back of USS John C. Stennis.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Gerry, I had to ask some friends "in the know" to be sure. Here are the answers:

Bugs are solved indeed. The head of class had issues, but now all is good as shown with Dixmude (3rd of class) that was delivered ahead of schedule

From a 2006 article:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(google translation)



About civilian standard, this is from my friends :




Hope it helps ;)

---------- Post added at 06:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

2012 Procurment budget in million €
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Rafale takes a fair share of the pie...
Then it is the future SSN class and FREMM Frigates.
PA2 (Future aircraft carrier) is still there... but no budget allocated



I see this old post, good remark.
And the reason is that the MOD French is obligated under a contract to buy at least 11 Rafale per year in the absence of export orders.

Otherwise production is not enough large to be profitable, especially for subcontractors.

1575 millons of Euros for support, radar AESA, integration Meteor etc... in fact price of one Rafale Fly Away about 70 Mill € ( a little less than the Typhoon ).

Actually exists only one assembly line but we can easily open a second for a production of about 20 aircraft per year, it is assembled at Bordeaux-Merignac.


For 2013 : delivered : 8 for AF and 3 for Navy.

Rafale in French Air Force End december 2012 :

AF : 228 planned

78 delivered 1 lost 77 in service

OOB :
St Dizier : Squ 1/7 with about 20 Raf
1/91 " "
2/92 OCU ( with Navy which lends 2 Raf ) 8 raf

Mont de Marsan : 2/30 about 15 receive those products in 2013 ( with AESA radar ) to have 20 normal staffing
French OEU 5/330 ( with also Mir 2000 etc.. )
2014/15 : next squadron " RAF 4 " for remplace 2/33 with Mir F1 CR

Al Dhafra/United Arab Emirates : 3/30 : 6 raf

Second number 30 etc... it' s the old number of Wing, first number ... of squadron.
Now squads still exist but the planes are administratively attached to bases each base have a number, for logistical reasons.

The Rafale is versatile each squadron has a basic specialty : 1/7 combat air-air, 1/91 nuclear, 2/30 reconnaissance.

Navy : planned 58 delivered 37 lost 4 in stock 10 ( standard F 1 being upgraded to standard F3 to return to service ),
then 23 in service.

Landivisiau : 11 F ( flotilla ) : about 10
12 F : " "
Future 17 F about 2015 actually with Super-Etendard

In more 2 with 2/92, normal staffing by squ. : 15.

2 ready for Ch de Gaulle and one training.
Raf F1 upgraded to F3 : 10 : 2014/17.

Only Raf of Navy are armed with the ASM AM-39.

For AESA radar only the last 60 ordered are equiped ( last multi year procurement ) for the moment no update for the others. The first with OEU squ.
 

navyreco

Senior Member
Nexter Systems VBCI 8x8 armoured vehicle ready to be used as modular platform for multi mission.
At IDEX 2013, International Defence Exhibition in United Arab Emirates, the French Company Nexter Systems has unveiled five new variants of its VBCI Armoured Infantry Fighting Vehicle. Nexter wants to demonstrate that its VBCI is a modular platform that can be used for many tasks, and be adapted to the needs of future customer.

8qBxayF.jpg

Scale model of VBCI 120mm self-propelled mortar carrier
VBCI 120 mortar carrier for indirect fire power:

The VBCI mortar carrier is fitted with a semi-automatic 120mm mortar mounted at the rear side of the vehicle. The mortar can fire from the mounted position within the vehicle. It fires through two roof hatches that swing to each side on the top of the vehicle. If necessary the mortar can also be used dismounted.

This type of artillery system is fitted with a battlefield information management system, which links up with other similarly equipped vehicles and command posts. It also has a digital fire control system with integrated navigation, self-positioning and aiming systems. This fire control system can operate in automatic laying mode, once it receives target data from an observation position.

DYPUNii.jpg

Scale model of VBCI equipped with Russian-made BMP-3 turret
VBCI with BMP-3 turret for maximum fire power and mobility:

Since many years the armed forces of the United Arab Emirates use the Russian-made BMP-3 which is the most heavily armed infantry combat vehicles in service, fitted with a low-velocity 2A70 100mm rifled gun, which can fire conventional shells or 9M117 ATGMs (AT-10 Stabber) (40 100mm rounds and 8 ATGMs are carried), a 2A72 30mm dual feed autocannon with 500 rounds and a rate of fire of 350 to 400 RPM, and a 7.62mm PKT machine gun with 2,000 rounds, all mounted coaxially in the turret.

The BMP-3 has showed great ability to fight with its heavy weapons system, but the vehicle showed some gaps in mobility due the use of a tracked vehicle especially in the desert.

Nexter proposes a new solution with the use of the 8x8 chassis VBCI to increase mobility, while maintaining the firepower with the integration of BMP-3 turret on the vehicle.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

navyreco

Senior Member
A few videos from NAVDEX

[video=youtube;sTQ_rgdhzxo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTQ_rgdhzxo[/video]

[video=youtube;e4PqubDjizA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4PqubDjizA[/video]

Plus:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Top