Fourth Taiwan Strait Crisis

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Heliox

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You lost me there: why is it such a big deal for a PLA officer landing on
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, lightly armed or unarmed?

lolz, yeah excuse that Lizz Truss level brain fart there.

Land on Kinmen or something similar

Your median line is no more, your 12nm territorial limits aren't worth the crayon they're drawn with. We come and go as we please ...
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
The current development reminds me a lot about the Beiping Model and the Tianjin model during 解放战争 (I dislike the term Chinese Civil War for various reasons). Now I actually think armed reunification is actually not that necessary and we may actually see peaceful reunification in the next 5 - 10 years, in line with what Xi and many CPC higher-ups have been suggesting in the past many years. It seems like this has always been the plan, things have just become obvious to us lay-folks after the Pelosi event - I was a firm believer of AR prior to this, but now I think a peaceful reunification is a much more powerful game plan with profound impacts to the balance of power in West Pacific.

I'll explain my rationale, starting with a bit of history:

In the 3rd phase of 解放战争, PingJin campaign(平津战役), PLA's goal is to liberate Beiping (Beijing's previous name during ROC peroid) and the costal city of Tianjin. Beiping was a tricky matter as its liberation has high political significance as it's been the capital for a few dynasties in China (duh - which is why it's the current Chinese capital) and there are a lot of historical sites that needed to be preserved. Mao did not want to forcefully take the city, although he could. KMT's commander in Beiping thought he could hold off the PLA for some time and use that as leverage for subsequent negotiations, and the KMT defender of Tianjin was a trusted subordinate of his, and Tianjin was especially heavily fortified and defended by the KMT troops.

Long story short, PLA surrounded Beiping and negotiated with Fu (KMT commander defending Beiping) and Fu would not surrender believing he still has a chance to play this out. In the mean time, PLA attacked Tianjin after a few rounds of negotiations and steamrolled the KMT defendants, and captured the KMT commander alive within 29 hours of fighting and eliminated 130,000 KMT defenders. So the Tianjin model summarized in a few words would be giving you a heads up then properly f**king your s**t up.

Having seen his most trusted subordinate properly f**ked in Tianjin, Fu essentially gave up and surrendered, and agreed to laid down arms and let PLA in under immense psychological and military pressure from the PLA and CPC spies. Mao was able to take Beiping without firing a single bullet. That is the Beiping model - a classic example of 不战而屈人之兵 (a force that can defeat opponents without fighting) described in the Art of War.

I believe a combination of Tianjin and Beiping model has always been the plan for Taiwan. Although AR would seem satisfying to a lot of people and will showcase the capability of the PLA to the world, it is not the most ideal solution.

Remember - 主不可以怒而兴师,将不可以愠而致战。合于利而动,不合于利而止 (lords and generals shall not wage war due to anger/rage, only strike when there is tangible benefit, make no move if there is nothing to be gained) - CPC's ultimate goal is the great rejuvenation of the Chinese civilization, and a key pillar in this goal is to undermine US dominance in West Pacific. Reunify Taiwan under the most ideal situation contributes to this goal; AR can put up a good show, but it is not the most ideal solution and has significant risks and drawbacks - you can never fully control the fallout of a war, wars can have direct and indirect impact on nations' fates for many decades and you will never know if it ultimately serves your purpose or not. (Think about how the Vietnam War contributed to the onset of hippies and civil rights movement, then the woke culture, and subsequently the current trans-movement. A US general in the 1960s would not have imagined that the decisions to send Marines to South Vietnam may mean that a non-insignificant portion of the US armed forces in the 2030s may be made up of transgendered people... Although this example is a bit exaggerated lol but you get my point)

Now how would peaceful reunification be achieved? By combining both Beiping and Tianjin model: immense military, economic, and psychological pressure, Taiwan may actually cave in and give up in a few years when its people can no loner bear the suffering. If the type of exercise we are witnessing these couple of days from the PLA becomes routine, and happens like 2 - 3 times a year for the next couple of years, how would that impact Taiwan's economy? If Taiwan's infrastructures are constantly under cyber-attack (apparently Taiwan's police system has been attacked and it is not currently functional), normal people will feel that (I really felt it when Rogers went down for a full day a little bit ago in Canada). What if every couple of weeks a few PLA drones fly over Taiwan in the middle of the night over populated cities and make huge noises, do they shoot them down or not? What if every couple of months PLA started mass assembling and pretend to launch a AR which forces all Taiwanese people to have to go hide in shelters? There are literally so many military options to make everyone in Taiwan suffer more and more each day, and it can just get worse by each day.

And we are not even counting the economic front. Decades of 惠台 (benefit-Taiwan) policies from CPC is such a screwed-up and brilliant move, regardless of their original intensions, the fact of the matter is that these policies made so much of Taiwan's economy to be dependent on the mainland. If you simply take these policies away, Taiwan would suffer, and we are not even talking about actual sanctions. I'm not going to list all the possibilities but you can imagine (TSMC and the semi-conductor industry alone cannot feed all Taiwanese).

In an extreme scenario, maybe in 5 years, your normal Taiwanese can experience what it is like right to live in Russia in 1991. After all, no business and capital would want to stay on a tiny island that is at risk of suffering armed conflict and they would gradually pull out, all the rich Taiwanese as well - which is not the majority of the Taiwanese. What would be left?

Look at Sri Lanka, I'm pretty sure it was one of the richest nations in South Asia by per capital GDP a few years ago, but Covid and the war in Ukraine has completely changed the fate of this nation. We don't know how much suffering CPC can bring to Taiwan through military and economic pressure, but I don't think it can be taken lightly. By then, if Taiwan just agrees to reunify with China, then this could all disappear, do you think the Taiwanese people would want that? No one can be 100% sure, a lot of things can change really quickly in the span of a few years (e.g., think about PLAN in 2011 vs 2021, or US - China relationships 2017 vs 2022) but let's just say that even if by then Taiwan still does not want to peacefully reunify with the mainland, these kind of things can make AR so much more easier than today.

I think the US has really left itself in a very awkward position. With Pelosi's visit there is literally not much else they could do to about the Taiwan card other than declaring Taiwan's independence formally or station troops directly on Taiwan. I don't think they want to do those things. But Pelosi's visit enables CPC to do all of the things I mentioned above, and the US can't really do much about it unless they directly intervene militarily. The US military may intervene during a scenario of AR, but the likelihood of them intervening militarily when the CPC and PLA are doing the things I mentioned above is really slim. I don't think the US has any more cards to play after this, from now on, it is the CPC that will be making future moves and the US can only follow when it comes to Taiwan.

I kind of feel like this is CPC's plan for a while now, contingencies have been set up to initiate the a certain process on Taiwan, and they're just waiting for US to make its move - by crossing the "red line" for domestic political purposes, China will exploit this opportunity and kickstart the planned contingency. WJP's recent article suggested this as well.

So yeah, that's basically some of the things I thought about in the past 2 days. I guess that is my prediction lol - peaceful reunification is possible within the next 5 - 10 years, but by then yall probably would no longer care about Taiwan as it is no longer that relevant

Do you agree? Disagree? Any thoughts?
Nah, in the Chinese civil war, the KMT was an independent party making its own decisions. Taiwan today is much less so. Washington DC and Beijing are deciding the fate of Taiwan, not the Taiwanese. All these military exercises are done for Washington DC as well as other governments around the world. Sometimes countries are pushed down a path that is not in its own interest but are powerless to stop it. Take Ukraine, it is pretty obvious that the Russians are going to win. Ukraine simply do not have that it takes to prevail. Yet they are fighting to the last Ukrainian because that is the will of Washington DC. Since there is no hope of the Ukrainians winning, why is the U.S. continuing this war? I heard one explanation that make a lot of sense. From the U.S. side, since we cannot have Ukraine, we want to make is less governable by the Russians. One way to do that is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible in this losing war. This creates the hatred for the Russians for those families that had their son/father killed in the war. Now if you were a Ukrainian, you would want to stop this war and negotiate a treaty. That is in your interest, but you really have no say in the matter. foreign money and interests are running the show. Taiwan is maybe not quite so screwed up, but the politicians simply don't have the option to follow any Beping model if the U.S. does not allow it. Peaceful reunification must go through Washington DC. It may yet happen as the U.S. is weakened and teeters in and out of crisis of our own making, but Taiwan has no say on that.
 

weig2000

Captain
lolz, yeah excuse that Lizz Truss level brain fart there.

Land on Kinmen or something similar

Your median line is no more, your 12nm territorial limits aren't worth the crayon they're drawn with. We come and go as we please ...

Kinmen is actually very pro-PRC and anti-DPP. Fujian supplies a lot of fresh water to Kinmen at the request of Kinmen - t
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, exactly four years ago. In fact, Kinmen county executive is also asking Fujian to provide electricity and build bridge between the two in the future. A lot of Kinmen residents own properties in Xiamen Island facing Kinmen.

That's why your idea of sending a PLA official to Kinmen is not exactly a bright idea: if the official is armed, he will be treated with either red carpet or red flag (PRC flag); if he is unarmed, he will be mistaken to be a tourist from Fujian.

Perhaps you want to suggest Penghu, instead of Pingtan or Kinmen?

LOL.
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
Kinmen is actually very pro-PRC and anti-DPP. Fujian supplies a lot of fresh water to Kinmen at the request of Kinmen - t
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, exactly four years ago. In fact, Kinmen county executive is also asking Fujian to provide electricity and build bridge between the two in the future. A lot of Kinmen residents own properties in Xiamen Island facing Kinmen.

That's why your idea of sending a PLA official to Kinmen is not exactly a bright idea: if the official is armed, he will be treated with either red carpet or red flag (PRC flag); if he is unarmed, he will be mistaken to be a tourist from Fujian.

Perhaps you want to suggest Penghu, instead of Pingtan or Kinmen?

LOL.

Yup. Aware. Perfect for bloodless coup.

Anything to just give them that little push to set it rolling ...

Send this over Kinmen then ;)

COC4vBhUwAAtNO0.png

... Or better still, put @Loveleenkr underslung on a flypast throwing out leaflets at the garrison
 
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efficient_kiwi

New Member
Registered Member
If the type of exercise we are witnessing these couple of days from the PLA becomes routine, and happens like 2 - 3 times a year for the next couple of years, how would that impact Taiwan's economy? If Taiwan's infrastructures are constantly under cyber-attack (apparently Taiwan's police system has been attacked and it is not currently functional), normal people will feel that (I really felt it when Rogers went down for a full day a little bit ago in Canada). What if every couple of weeks a few PLA drones fly over Taiwan in the middle of the night over populated cities and make huge noises, do they shoot them down or not? What if every couple of months PLA started mass assembling and pretend to launch a AR which forces all Taiwanese people to have to go hide in shelters? There are literally so many military options to make everyone in Taiwan suffer more and more each day, and it can just get worse by each day.
Interesting tactics. As I'm currently on the island, I'll try to address some of your points.

First, the continued exercises, assuming that the PLA can support them, could be an issue. However, I do feel that economically, it still falls far short of a total blockade. There would be an acclimation period, ofc, but I feel that a couple days delay for 2-3 times per year is a minor nuisance, at worst.

Cyberattacks actually have a pretty wide range. Currently the DDoS attacks on gov websites are pretty much par for the course; they're still quite a far cry from knocking out internet services for the country, like the Rogers crash you mentioned. The Chinese have not yet demonstrated their ability to do so. The police system issue hasn't been shown yet to be caused by an attack, so I'll withhold judgement on that. The officials are saying it was an equipment malfunction, which I find plausible considering the poor state of govt. equipment in Taiwan. The timing is suspect, though.

If drones fly over Taipei, the MOD will definitely engage. This isn't even a question, as failing to do so would mean giving up on any shred of legitimacy. Whether they can actually shoot them down is another question, but allowing flyovers is not gonna happen. Nope. Zero chance.

Faking a mass assembling makes no sense, imo. First of all, there is a cost to mobilization, pulling troops into Fujian, etc. Is this cost worth it for the (questionable) psychological value? Because I'm pretty sure no one is moving into bunkers here. This is due to a couple reasons: many think the Chinese are just bluffing, a paper tiger if you will; others feel that the residential areas are of little strategic value, and so are relatively safe. I don't think the PLA would strike residential areas either in a first strike. The psychological value gained just isn't worth it. So no, I don't think this is a good strategy at all.

So I think the military part doesn't really work. Cyberwarfare capability is a big unknown obviously. Economically, it's true that Taiwan is quite vulnerable.
 

FriedButter

Colonel
Registered Member
There would be an acclimation period, ofc, but I feel that a couple days delay for 2-3 times per year is a minor nuisance, at worst.

Only if you do it at a predictable schedule. Do it randomly multiple times per year. People really don’t like it when their supply chains and shipping get messed with. Because it adds unnecessary cost and reduce profits. If it adds like 10 days of ships sitting at some foreign port then that eats into your profits.
 

efficient_kiwi

New Member
Registered Member
Kinmen is actually very pro-PRC and anti-DPP. Fujian supplies a lot of fresh water to Kinmen at the request of Kinmen - t
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, exactly four years ago. In fact, Kinmen county executive is also asking Fujian to provide electricity and build bridge between the two in the future. A lot of Kinmen residents own properties in Xiamen Island facing Kinmen.

That's why your idea of sending a PLA official to Kinmen is not exactly a bright idea: if the official is armed, he will be treated with either red carpet or red flag (PRC flag); if he is unarmed, he will be mistaken to be a tourist from Fujian.

Perhaps you want to suggest Penghu, instead of Pingtan or Kinmen?

LOL.
Wonder about that though. Might be the case on the civilian side, but the AA guns are controlled by the military, hehe.
Yup. Aware. Perfect for bloodless coup.

Anything to just give them that little push to set it rolling ...

Send this over Kinmen then ;)

View attachment 94922

... Or better still, put @Loveleenkr underslung on a flypast throwing out leaflets at the garrison
We need a return to 心戰廣播, LOL
 

efficient_kiwi

New Member
Registered Member
Only if you do it at a predictable schedule. Do it randomly multiple times per year. People really don’t like it when their supply chains and shipping get messed with. Because it adds unnecessary cost and reduce profits. If it adds like 10 days of ships sitting at some foreign port then that eats into your profits.
Good points, but is making people even more pissed off at China worth it? There's always a tradeoff. This time there's plausible deniability due to the Pelosi visit; what's the excuse next time? I don't think this response to Pelosi visiting will normalize blocking off large swaths of the Strait anytime soon.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Dunno why people are concerned about a CSG passing through the Taiwan Strait.
If US assets in the 1st Island Chain are in a death zone, then in the Taiwan Strait they literally are inside a death trap.

Taking this into consideration, I hope the US sends another 2 CSG to pass through Taiwan straits together so that we have the opportunity to finish them once and for all. If someone brings food at your doorstep, why complain?
 
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