Food & Resource Security

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Fishmeal is horrible for the environment and has negative diplomatic consequences. Chinese fish farming is mostly tilapia which are herbivores and scavengers that can even eat literal shit.
True, I'm simply looking at it from a cost perspective, fish meal is more applicable for higher end carnivorous fish (salmon, tuna) I'd imagine , since you can feed tilapias with pelletized feed crops which will be dirt cheap.

Infact, from a quick google that's exactly what they do:
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Pond tilapia gets fed with pellets that are 50% manure, 37% bran and only 2% fishmeal.

Compare that against salmon feed which has upwards of 30% fishmeal/oil content.
I actually like even traditional soy chicken 素鸡 more than real meat. China has tons of traditional plant based proteins. The modern stuff is good for burgers and chicken too.

But this isn't plant based milk which Chinese already drink way more than animal milk. it is bioengineered microbial milk which can have specifically tuned nutrients - AKA, it has the potential to be superior to animal milk in every way.
I think Chinese vegetarian food culture is vibrant enough that any food, bioengineered or not should be able to stand on its own without having to lean on something pre-existing. Chinese consumers are quite receptive to trying out new foods so I just think it should not be advertised as milk substitute, but rather something different and better.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
True, I'm simply looking at it from a cost perspective, fish meal is more applicable for higher end carnivorous fish (salmon, tuna) I'd imagine , since you can feed tilapias with pelletized feed crops which will be dirt cheap.

Infact, from a quick google that's exactly what they do:
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Pond tilapia gets fed with pellets that are 50% manure, 37% bran and only 2% fishmeal.

Compare that against salmon feed which has upwards of 30% fishmeal/oil content.

I think Chinese vegetarian food culture is vibrant enough that any food, bioengineered or not should be able to stand on its own without having to lean on something pre-existing. Chinese consumers are quite receptive to trying out new foods so I just think it should not be advertised as milk substitute, but rather something different and better.
I think the microbial milk is going to be good as it solves a problems with plant based milks: fermented and processed products like yogurts, cream, etc that don't work the same way as animal milk naturally, but can with bioengineered milk.

Historically Chinese (and other East Asians) did not consume dairy or eat beef due to religion and lactose intolerance. Dairy and beef was introduced by British imperialists.

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.

This means that unlike in the west, milk is not part of the culinary tradition and is easily replaced without getting emotional attachment.
 

measuredingabens

Junior Member
Registered Member
A little old but I found this on bioengineered cow free dairy:

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Apparently it is ridiculously more efficient than cow dairy:

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It's been in research in China for a while:

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Not too surprising that microbial dairy is so much more efficient than animal dairy. You really just need bioreactors and feedstock for microbes, whereas with animals you need space for them to move around in, provide comparably massive large amounts of feed and water to sustain them all the while they belch out greenhouse emissions.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Not too surprising that microbial dairy is so much more efficient than animal dairy. You really just need bioreactors and feedstock for microbes, whereas with animals you need space for them to move around in, provide comparably massive large amounts of feed and water to sustain them all the while they belch out greenhouse emissions.
Certain countries solve the space problem by locking them up in factory farms from birth. They also solve the feed problem by feeding cows junk that gives them diseases, and solve the disease problem by giving them tons of antibiotics, same ones given to humans in many cases, which makes the bacteria antibiotic resistant.

Once microbial dairy is widespread in China there should be a global ad campaign, which is 100% truthful, about the conditions in certain dairies.

The dairy industry is a cornerstone of some countries dominance, even culturally. Most Asians didn't eat beef or drink dairy before the 1900s, it was all introduced by foreign imperialists.

Even today, they control the global supply of cow feed crops, cow genetic resources, etc. They literally control whether many countries eat or starve. And the dairy not under their control... is under Indian control.

Food is a strategic resource battlefield, and the high tech goes deep. Many 3rd world countries are under the total control of foreign biotech companies because of their control over seeds, genetic resources and paired pesticide- resistant seed GMOs.
 
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tacoburger

Junior Member
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A Russian export company has signed a deal to export 70 million tonnes of grain, legumes and oilseeds to China, Reuters reported on Oct. 18.

The company, EPT, said the contract was for 12 years with a possible extension, according to Reuters.

Karen Hovsepyan, leader of the New Land Grain Corridor Initiative, told the Tass news agency that the deal is worth nearly $26 billion.

Massive trade deal here. I wonder how much of the food will come via sea routes vs land routes. I know that it's a lot cheaper and easier to transport this large amounts of cargo by sea, but considering the geopolitical climate, I wonder if it's advantageous for Russia/China to start developing robust land routes that can carry increasingly large amounts of cargo.
 

CMP

Senior Member
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Massive trade deal here. I wonder how much of the food will come via sea routes vs land routes. I know that it's a lot cheaper and easier to transport this large amounts of cargo by sea, but considering the geopolitical climate, I wonder if it's advantageous for Russia/China to start developing robust land routes that can carry increasingly large amounts of cargo.
Sea routes are the most vulnerable during war. The land routes need to be robust, fast, and redundant, even if it means massive subsidies from a national security perspective.
 

drowingfish

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Massive trade deal here. I wonder how much of the food will come via sea routes vs land routes. I know that it's a lot cheaper and easier to transport this large amounts of cargo by sea, but considering the geopolitical climate, I wonder if it's advantageous for Russia/China to start developing robust land routes that can carry increasingly large amounts of cargo.
likely transport by sea route until it becomes untenable. then they can do trans-siberian. it reminds me of a few months ago putin said he wanted to build another trans-siberian line.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
likely transport by sea route until it becomes untenable. then they can do trans-siberian. it reminds me of a few months ago putin said he wanted to build another trans-siberian line.
It is already being built. They are making the BAM (Baikal-Amur Mainline) double track and electrified. But it will take close to a decade.

As is, the Trans-Siberian itself was already electrified and its speed was basically doubled since the 1990s.
 

tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think it's possible for China to be fully sufficient in food, both in calories and luxury foods like meat, quite soon in fact. But this depends on new technology, while China has been extremely slow on the uptake. China needs to change it's regulations and fully support the development of this new technology if it wants rapid development. There's a lot of room for growth here, since yield per surface area in China is quite a bit lower than on other western nations. It also needs to get people to accept this new forms of food.

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They said that the yield of the GMO crops would be about 5.6 percent to 11.6 percent higher than their conventional counterparts, a result of strong resistance to pesticides and destructive pests such as fall armyworm.
The roll out of GMO crops are going well. But it stills needs a lot more work. China is slowly expanding the amount of land that can be planted by GMO crops, but at this rate, it's gonna take more than a decade before the land area outnumbers the amount of land being used for conventional crops. As a reminder, GMO crops have been a thing for more than 3 decades at this point, in most western countries like America, their farmland is dominated by GMO crops.

With climate change, extreme weather and geopolitical tensions messing up the global food supply, I think China really really needs to hasten the rollout of GMO crops.

There's a few main issues I can still see with China's GMO policy, other then the slow implementation speed.

First thing is that GMO crops are still limited for crops meant solely for livestock, they are not meant for human consumption. That needs to change. GMO crops for humans have been a thing for decades, with hundreds of studies backing them up, safely issues really shouldn't be such a contentious topic.

Secondly, regulations being so strict and time consuming China, companies are mainly focusing on modification of existing genes, adding, removing or modifying existing gene within a particular crop, which limits things. For example, you can over-express the gene that already exists that regulates resistance to drought in a plant, but you can't add an entirely new gene to a plant that doesn't already have it. This really limits the kind of modifications you can do with a GMO crop. You can't make holy grail crops like C4 rice for example.

Thirdly, no real focus GMO livestock. Unlike GMO crops, there's no policy, 5 year plans, no regulations, nothing. We're probably a decade away from seeing the first GMO livestock on chinese soil. Well work on GMO livestock is slow even in the West due to well founded concerns but it's still years ahead of where China is at, America and Japan already have GMO fast growing fish being farmed. Forget super fast growing chickens or ultra fat cows, just some simple gene editing to help with disease resistance could save China billions every year. And China has the technology for this, it's just a regulation issue.

The other big new food source would be alternative protein/carbohydrate sources, precision fermentation, plant protein, cultured meat, insect protein, industrial synthesis of protein/fat/carbohydrates.

Precision fermentation and cultured meat have large potential, are rapidly falling in price every year and are vastly more efficient then traditional agriculture, if industry predictions are right, they could be cheaper than traditional protein sources in a decade if the proper investments are made. Once again China needs to step up support for this new technologies and also ease the regulations. There's mountains of benefits to precision fermentation and cultured meat, from less waste, much more efficient conversion of raw feedstock, less usage of land and water, less carbon emissions, less animal cruelty and being able to produce it in the middle of a city, instead of a large farm.

Insect protein is also much more efficient. They can be fed off the mountains of food waste that modern society produces. It will be hard to impossible to get people to eat bugs, but they can be grinded up for use in protein additives like protein powder and feedstock for livestock. Technology and regulations aren't as much of an issue here, but cities will probably want to encourage companies and various food waste companies to set up such insect farms for food waste rather then chucking everything into a landfill.

Industrial synthesis of food is also another massive source of food. You can turn hydrocarbons like coal into fat. Methane into protein. Carbon dioxide into starch and glucose. You can produce truly enormous amount of food with this method. Probably not ever going to be fit for consumers, unless you enjoy eating protein shakes and raw sugar but again, perfect for livestock feed or use in precision fermentation and cultured meat. The technology is already here, it's again just a regulation and investment issue to build all those factories and getting farmers to use them for their animal feed.

Aquaculture and mariculture are another big source of food, considering the sheer amount of surface area and volume by China's coastline and it's generally more efficient than traditional livestock. It's already being intensely developed and invested into by China and technology isn't as much of an issue as with the other fields, so it's already seeing massive growth over the last few years. Seaweed or kelp farming is also enjoying steadily growth

But there's still lots of development to be done. One big area is further reducing the amount of wild fish or meat used in fishmeal. And discouraging the farming of carnivorous fish. If protein is needed, it should be from substainable sources like insects. GMO fish would also be a game changer, seeing as the major issue with fish farming is disease and pests and GMO fish resistant to common disease and pests will completely change the entire industry.

There's also an ongoing development to move into deeper and deeper waters to reduce disease and waste issues. Better robotics, A.I and increased automation will also completely change the nature of the industry, since humans are the weak link when dealing with anything water related. You could see even deeper submerged fish farms, or even sea cages anchored to the seabed, farming lobsters and other shellfish, being maintain and operated entirely by robots.

One big one, and this is the biggest deal of them all is using gene drives to completely wipe out various crop pests forever. Goodbye armyworm, Weevils forever. And if you don't want to render them extinct, there's dozens of genetical methods of pest control is still much longer lasting, effective, cheaper and healthier than spraying pesticides everywhere.


It's frustrating, I feel like with a few policy/regulation changes, like with GMO crops, and with a some steady investments into certain key techlolongies, China can easily be more than self sufficient in it's food supply already. Instead it's probably going to take another decade as the regulations slowly sort themselves out and techologny improves.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think it's possible for China to be fully sufficient in food, both in calories and luxury foods like meat, quite soon in fact. But this depends on new technology, while China has been extremely slow on the uptake. China needs to change it's regulations and fully support the development of this new technology if it wants rapid development. There's a lot of room for growth here, since yield per surface area in China is quite a bit lower than on other western nations. It also needs to get people to accept this new forms of food.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The roll out of GMO crops are going well. But it stills needs a lot more work. China is slowly expanding the amount of land that can be planted by GMO crops, but at this rate, it's gonna take more than a decade before the land area outnumbers the amount of land being used for conventional crops. As a reminder, GMO crops have been a thing for more than 3 decades at this point, in most western countries like America, their farmland is dominated by GMO crops.

With climate change, extreme weather and geopolitical tensions messing up the global food supply, I think China really really needs to hasten the rollout of GMO crops.

There's a few main issues I can still see with China's GMO policy, other then the slow implementation speed.

First thing is that GMO crops are still limited for crops meant solely for livestock, they are not meant for human consumption. That needs to change. GMO crops for humans have been a thing for decades, with hundreds of studies backing them up, safely issues really shouldn't be such a contentious topic.

Secondly, regulations being so strict and time consuming China, companies are mainly focusing on modification of existing genes, adding, removing or modifying existing gene within a particular crop, which limits things. For example, you can over-express the gene that already exists that regulates resistance to drought in a plant, but you can't add an entirely new gene to a plant that doesn't already have it. This really limits the kind of modifications you can do with a GMO crop. You can't make holy grail crops like C4 rice for example.

Thirdly, no real focus GMO livestock. Unlike GMO crops, there's no policy, 5 year plans, no regulations, nothing. We're probably a decade away from seeing the first GMO livestock on chinese soil. Well work on GMO livestock is slow even in the West due to well founded concerns but it's still years ahead of where China is at, America and Japan already have GMO fast growing fish being farmed. Forget super fast growing chickens or ultra fat cows, just some simple gene editing to help with disease resistance could save China billions every year. And China has the technology for this, it's just a regulation issue.

The other big new food source would be alternative protein/carbohydrate sources, precision fermentation, plant protein, cultured meat, insect protein, industrial synthesis of protein/fat/carbohydrates.

Precision fermentation and cultured meat have large potential, are rapidly falling in price every year and are vastly more efficient then traditional agriculture, if industry predictions are right, they could be cheaper than traditional protein sources in a decade if the proper investments are made. Once again China needs to step up support for this new technologies and also ease the regulations. There's mountains of benefits to precision fermentation and cultured meat, from less waste, much more efficient conversion of raw feedstock, less usage of land and water, less carbon emissions, less animal cruelty and being able to produce it in the middle of a city, instead of a large farm.

Insect protein is also much more efficient. They can be fed off the mountains of food waste that modern society produces. It will be hard to impossible to get people to eat bugs, but they can be grinded up for use in protein additives like protein powder and feedstock for livestock. Technology and regulations aren't as much of an issue here, but cities will probably want to encourage companies and various food waste companies to set up such insect farms for food waste rather then chucking everything into a landfill.

Industrial synthesis of food is also another massive source of food. You can turn hydrocarbons like coal into fat. Methane into protein. Carbon dioxide into starch and glucose. You can produce truly enormous amount of food with this method. Probably not ever going to be fit for consumers, unless you enjoy eating protein shakes and raw sugar but again, perfect for livestock feed or use in precision fermentation and cultured meat. The technology is already here, it's again just a regulation and investment issue to build all those factories and getting farmers to use them for their animal feed.

Aquaculture and mariculture are another big source of food, considering the sheer amount of surface area and volume by China's coastline and it's generally more efficient than traditional livestock. It's already being intensely developed and invested into by China and technology isn't as much of an issue as with the other fields, so it's already seeing massive growth over the last few years. Seaweed or kelp farming is also enjoying steadily growth

But there's still lots of development to be done. One big area is further reducing the amount of wild fish or meat used in fishmeal. And discouraging the farming of carnivorous fish. If protein is needed, it should be from substainable sources like insects. GMO fish would also be a game changer, seeing as the major issue with fish farming is disease and pests and GMO fish resistant to common disease and pests will completely change the entire industry.

There's also an ongoing development to move into deeper and deeper waters to reduce disease and waste issues. Better robotics, A.I and increased automation will also completely change the nature of the industry, since humans are the weak link when dealing with anything water related. You could see even deeper submerged fish farms, or even sea cages anchored to the seabed, farming lobsters and other shellfish, being maintain and operated entirely by robots.

One big one, and this is the biggest deal of them all is using gene drives to completely wipe out various crop pests forever. Goodbye armyworm, Weevils forever. And if you don't want to render them extinct, there's dozens of genetical methods of pest control is still much longer lasting, effective, cheaper and healthier than spraying pesticides everywhere.


It's frustrating, I feel like with a few policy/regulation changes, like with GMO crops, and with a some steady investments into certain key techlolongies, China can easily be more than self sufficient in it's food supply already. Instead it's probably going to take another decade as the regulations slowly sort themselves out and techologny improves.
Why insect protein though??? We have all the high efficiency high protein vegetarian food in the form of tofu and seitan since 200 BC. Yes you can grind up insects to feed livestock but protein is not limited by animals or waste. 70% of nitrogen in human biomass is Haber Bosch derived, which is from natural gas.

Food waste is handled by composting bacteria.

For meat eaters there's tilapia and new plant protein based meats that just need to get more efficient and cheap to outcompete animal meat.

For dairy products, since Chinese don't eat raw dairy products or drink milk, precision fermentation would be more than enough.

The biggest obstacle is mindset. Older people want to eat animal meat no matter what, no matter the price. It is an inelastic demand from them. When this mindset changes, so can China's food supply. China can supply enough vegetables, tofu,rice and fish to everyone right now.
 
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