FC-1 or J-10 vs questions

Hello all
Sorry for the aircraft vs aircraft post but. In my book I have Ecuador's air force having FC-1 and later J-10s and Peru's air force has F-16A/B and Kfir C-7/10s and Su-35s. I'm trying to write a chapter on a flight of Kfir's on a border attack mission being jumped by FC-1 and/or J-10, and was wondering how either or both aircraft would do against Kfir's and F-16 A/Bs.
This is a Kfir link , but the twist is both the Kfir/F-16A/B have been upgrade with the EL 2052 radar and are armed with Python 5s instead up Python 3/4s and both have Debry missiles. Both sides are less then 70 miles from there base so fuel isn't a problem. Peruvian ground forces need the close air support ASAP and the Ecuadorians need to stop the attack jets from reaching there targets. Both side have ground based radar so both sides knows about each other. The Kfir's are low under 6,000 feet 8 Kfir's in total with 6 F-16As flying at 15,000 feet. Ecuador's fighters two groups one 6,000 feet (8)FC-1, and (4) J-10s flying at 20,000 feet. No other back up or reserve aircraft can reach the battle area so both groups Ecuadorian and Peruvian are on there own. I guess at about 70/90 miles out the aircraft will see each other on there own radar's. Knowing so little about the FC-1 and J-10, I was wondering how this might turn out. I hope I gave enough information I didn't include the FC-1/J-10 link, I assume everybody knows there specs better then I do. The Kfir's must put bombs on targets and the Peruvians are pushing the attack because there key ground positions are being overrun. The F-16 pilots know the Ecuadorians will focus on stopping the attack jets. Any feed back is welcome thanks in advance.

For the Mod

Did I post this in the wrong forum? Are aircraft vs aircraft post not allowed? Are there no pilots in this forum who could take a crack at this or give some input on the post? If the post isn't clear enough could somebody tell how I should write such a post? Did I mention anything bad or wrong? Thanks in advance

Re: For the Mod

it's kind of hard to do such comparisons. You can be a little more specific with situations. For example, if you assume that Peru will get the ELM-2052 radar (which should be expensive), what do you assume Ecuador will have? What kind of missiles you expect JF-17 and J-10 to use and so forth. Also, the early warning radars involved, AWACS (I think Peru has some Phalcons, not sure about Ecuador).

Well I will try to answer best I can (I’m more infantry man; fighters are not exactly my area).
Well no one currently knows because all depends on FC-1/j-10 avionics… J-10 currently is quite comparable to F-16 C/D and FC-1 can have various avionics suite dependable of customer needs… but if j-10/FC-1 would carry sD-10 missile they would have advantage in BWR combat because SD-10 probably have greater range then Derby.

But since you are writing book about Peru/Ecuador border skirmishes you should have closer look at fighters Peru and Ecuador have…
So you could replace Peru’s F-16/Kfir whit Mig-29/mirage 2000 and Ecuador’s J-10/Fc-1 whit Kfir C10/mirage F-1…

In that case you would have more realistic book especially since Kfirs are modernized to carry Derby/Phayton5. You could also assume that Ecuador could modernize mirages to similar standard…

Now you would have small advantage on Peruvian side but both sides still have chance to win. It’s all up to you…

Ps. you are probably basing your story at evants from Peru/Ecuador Alto-Cenepa War in 1995

Nonpilot,
I think if you ask us specific questions about technical details (which is the reason you want us to do the comparison since you have little info on it ) for FC-1 and J-10 and try to further expand your scenario then you'll get a better response. I don't think many of us know much about the historical background on both countries and their performance in different conflicts. Is there a precedent to the mission that you have described? If so how was it undertaken (formations, munitions, scope, training levels etc).
However i still think it'll be better if you do the scenario and ask for the system specifications and their efectiveness here (for J-10 , FC-1).

nonpilot said:

Hello all
Sorry for the aircraft vs aircraft post but. In my book I have Ecuador's air force having FC-1 and later J-10s and Peru's air force has F-16A/B and Kfir C-7/10s and Su-35s. I'm trying to write a chapter on a flight of Kfir's on a border attack mission being jumped by FC-1 and/or J-10, and was wondering how either or both aircraft would do against Kfir's and F-16 A/Bs.

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused about your choice of aircraft.

The only AF that operates the most modern variant of the IAI Kfir C.10 is Ecuador and not Peru. Currently the Ecuador AF operates 2 Kfir C.10 and about 8 Kfir C.2 that have been upgraded to C.10 standard (Kfir CE), plus a couple of 2-seat trainers. Other fighter/attacker aircraft in Eucador AF's service include Jaguar and Mirage F1.

Peru's AF operate Mirage 2000P's, Su-22M-2's, MiG-29's & Su-25's. It was partly because Peru's purchase of the MiG-29 that the US agreed to sell F-16's to Chile.

I think it's very unlikely that the Peru AF would be operating F-16's and Kfirs in the near future. Why not just use Mirage-2000's and MiG-29's? Instead of upgraded Kfirs, you could give Peru MiG-29 OVT's. Say if Russia lost the Indian AF bid, or if Indian AF scaled back on its purchase, and Peru was able to get a good deal on the planes?

If Peru AF was performing a strike operation against Ecuador targets, you could say they upgraded their Su-22M2 to Su-22M4 or M5 standard, which adds TV-guided air to ground missile, BA-58 Vjuga pod anti-radiation missile, and LGB capability. This would enable the Peru Su-22's to perform precision strikes against radar & SAM sites, as well as airfields and other critical targets.

Instead of FC-1/J-10 vs. Kfir C10/F-16, you might want to consider writing Ecuador Kfir C.10 & FC-1 vs. Peru MiG-29 & Su-22. Assuming this conflict takes place in near future, you could write that Ecuador retired its Jaguar & Mirage F.1's, but was denyed F-16's and JAS-39's due to US objection, so they opted for the FC-1 as an inexpensive interim solution, as well as upgrading the existing Kfir C.10's with Israeli Python-5 AAM's & Derby AAM's.

Here's a possible line-up:

Peru strike force, assuming Mirage-2000's grounded due to lack of spares:
Su-22M4/M5 armed with anti-radiation missiles
Su-22M4/M5 armed with air to ground missiles and LGBs
MiG-29 (OVT?) in escort role

Ecuador interceptors:
Kfir C.10/CE armed with Python 3/4/5 & Derby AAM's
FC-1 armed with Chinese AAM's or Israeli radar + AAM's

You could have the FC-1 equipped with Israeli radar and Israeli AAM's (Python 5, Derby) instead of Chinese AAM's (PL-8/SD-10).

==============

However if you insist on doing your existing scenario, I'd say that the Python-5 is a better short range AAM's than anything the PLAAF has today, but the fight will prolly start with an exchange of BVR AAM's. Also, once you cross the border, you'd be subject to ground-based SAM attacks. If the aircraft is flying at under 6,000 feet, it'd be within range to shoulder-fired missile attacks too. Ecuador has SA-16 Igla and Blowpipe SAM's.

If the Kfir was put on bombing missions, it'd be heavily loaded down with bombs and prolly can't out-fly an interceptor aircraft armed with only AAM's.

Comparisons must be statistical only, and not speculative. Thus, we may compare T/W ratio or combat radii but not make statements like "I think Chinese avionics are bad...."

Thus, we may statistically compare the JF-17 with its possible future competitor the ahhem...cough sorry...LCA.

Thrust to weight ratio :
JF-17 : >1
LCA : 1.07

Weapons load:
JF-17 : 3,600 kgs.
LCA : 4,000 kgs.

FBW Redundancy :
JF-17 : Duplex (in yaw-axis only)
LCA : Quadruplex.

Percentage of composities :
JF-17 : ?
LCA : 45%

G-limit :
JF-17 : 8.5 g
LCA : 9 g

Service ceiling :
JF-17 : 16,500 m
LCA : 15,250 m

Range:
JF-17 : 1200 kms.
LCA : 850 kms.

Naval variant ?
JF-17 : No
LCA : Yes

Thus similar statistical comparisons may be made in case of the JF-17/J-10 with respect to other aircraft.

Re: For the Mod

I did leave out some important details I see thank you. Leaving out what was on Ecuadorian aircraft is just poor writing on my part. Thanks for getting my brain working agin.

Side note: The Phalcon (1) aircraft was brought from Israel and sold to Chile.

tphuang said:

it's kind of hard to do such comparisons. You can be a little more specific with situations. For example, if you assume that Peru will get the ELM-2052 radar (which should be expensive), what do you assume Ecuador will have? What kind of missiles you expect JF-17 and J-10 to use and so forth. Also, the early warning radars involved, AWACS (I think Peru has some Phalcons, not sure about Ecuador).

Click to expand...

Thank you all for answering and I try to explain my aircraft choices for all sides as best I can without typing a book. Thanks again for all of your answers.

1999 - Peru's government owned oil company makes a huge discovery south of Lima. Peru's new President doesn't need the cartels anymore and pushese the oil and soon to be gas industry. Peru's military and government sezied the larger cartels assets (rememeber its fiction).

Ecaudor's economy nearly clasped because the flow of coca from Peru was shut down. Venezuela (its too easy) step in and bailed out Ecuador's government. Venzuela very anti-US bought Chinese made aircraft and other weapons and began building up Ecuador's armed forces. etc

All US personnel is pulled out of Ecuador and Bolivia and Venezuela's oil money step in. The US which supports Peru now but can't just rush in and sell or give away advance jets or other weapons uses a third party country "Israel' and older F-16s and Kfir's upgraded etc. Ecuador lost all Israeli and American support period, cut off like Venezuela. Thus the reason for using Chinese made aircraft and other weapons. A huge gas discovery is made in the Ceppa Valley region and this leads to war. Venezuela knows Ecuador's armed forces are smaller then Peru so building up a second enemy "Bolivia" so Peru's armed forces have to split there armed forces up and remember there's alway an issue with Chile, so Peru still needs to keep a large chunk of there armed forces near Chile. So Ecuadorian ground forces still hold an almost 3 to 1 in man power over Peru on certain sections of there border. Venezuelan forces deploy to Ecuador including 2 squadrons of J-10s plus some AWAC and ground based radar's and SAMs.

Two days into the fighting Bolivia''s attacks and opens a second front hundreds of miles from the Ecuador thus forces Peru to move assets to southern and southeast Peru. That's when Venezuela supporting 6 to 8 thousand FARC rebels attack Peru opening yet a third front. Peru's being attack from three different enemies with Chile just waiting in the wings until it look like Peru will fall. Chile doesn't attack at first because there lose all support for there F-16s both new and used Falcons. Brazil stays on the fense not taking sides but pressured France not to sell anymore Mirage 2000s to Peru. The US wants to send forces but the new Gulf War III with Iran is draining the US armed forces so only equipment, spares, and intelligence can be provided by the US at this current time 2010 is war time. So Peru is on its own for about 2 weeks before the US can send some forces down to end the fighting. China is buying oil from Venezuela and natural gas from Bolivia and the US in a big oil/gas stortage are buying from Peru. Venezuela is against any country or government dealing with the US thus Peru becomes his focus. In a nut shell that's where I am. Writing is hard I have ideas but its putting them in words is a lot more difficult. In my book Venezuela become China's first export customer for there improved J-11s too. Any thoughts or ideas are welcome.

Thanks for the help and advise, nonpilot

isthvan said:

Well I will try to answer best I can (I’m more infantry man; fighters are not exactly my area).
Well no one currently knows because all depends on FC-1/j-10 avionics… J-10 currently is quite comparable to F-16 C/D and FC-1 can have various avionics suite dependable of customer needs… but if j-10/FC-1 would carry sD-10 missile they would have advantage in BWR combat because SD-10 probably have greater range then Derby.

But since you are writing book about Peru/Ecuador border skirmishes you should have closer look at fighters Peru and Ecuador have…
So you could replace Peru’s F-16/Kfir whit Mig-29/mirage 2000 and Ecuador’s J-10/Fc-1 whit Kfir C10/mirage F-1…

In that case you would have more realistic book especially since Kfirs are modernized to carry Derby/Phayton5. You could also assume that Ecuador could modernize mirages to similar standard…

Now you would have small advantage on Peruvian side but both sides still have chance to win. It’s all up to you…

Ps. you are probably basing your story at evants from Peru/Ecuador Alto-Cenepa War in 1995

Click to expand...

Thats alot of trouble Peru got self into

If i understand it correctly i think it's deep interdiction mission being taken by Perun airforce on Ecudaren front. I would doubt the feasibility of such a mission when you r being attacked by three countries (unless of course you are israel).However lets say for the sake of argument, such mission is being undertaken. From technological point of view i see both sides pretty balanced and i suppose this confrontation to soon trun into close call knife fight. Every one dies in WVR. You can expect atleast equal damage in the BVR proceedings if both sides display the same level of skill. However for peruan airforce pilots the mission is more complicated because it involves ground strike as well as escort. I would expect atleast two of the F-16s emulating some kind o swing role. J-10s will be going after the escorts and FC-1s will be indulging with kfirs. Since most of Kfir's will be involved in the primary role of interdiction I would expect them to be armed with more A2G munition than A2A. Their Python-5s and hemlet mounted displays will be great support as opposed to FC-1s Python-3 derivative in the shape of PL-9C. I do expect the FC-1s to be using offboresight and IRST. That could be one advanate for them if Kfir's don't have it.

Overall i would expect Ecudarians to have an upper hand since they have a much simpler mission involving just air supriority. Alot will depend on the personal skill of peruan pilots (low level flying to avoid detection, WVR tactics etc). Ecudar's airforce will do themselves a favor by detecting the intruders as far from target destination as possible and complicating their mission.