Kampfwagen
Junior Member
Sometimes I do wonder if the U.S army should have stuck to the Garand or continued development on another assault rifle system, instead of using the stop-gap M-16.
Faulty M-16 ammo?
- Thread starter crazyinsane105
- Start date
This may be off-topic, but I am just wondering: if the 5.56 is really a weak round, how would the Russian 5.45 round fare in a battle?
I have already gone into more details on this subject in the 5.8mm round thread. I havn't shot the 5.45. but I have shot the 5.56 plenty, along with several other different guns and calibers and I can say from my experience that bullets/rounds that are similar in dimensions normally perform similarly aswell. There might be miniscule differences in penetrations and damage among the 5mm rounds, but nothing really to note about.
What I will say, however, is that the only AK that I have EVER shot that even comes close to the accuracy of the AR, is my VEPR because of it's heavier construction and heavier chrome lined barrel. But then this performance is only at distances of no furthur than 100-150 yards. Any beyond that the AR has exceedingly better performance. If you know what you're doing you can really reach out and touch someone with an AR with good optics, the same really can't be said for any AK.
What I will say, however, is that the only AK that I have EVER shot that even comes close to the accuracy of the AR, is my VEPR because of it's heavier construction and heavier chrome lined barrel. But then this performance is only at distances of no furthur than 100-150 yards. Any beyond that the AR has exceedingly better performance. If you know what you're doing you can really reach out and touch someone with an AR with good optics, the same really can't be said for any AK.
Kampfwagen
Junior Member
Crazy, this is only what I have heard in the past, so take it with a grain of salt if you want.
Reportedly, the 5.45MM bullet was designed primarily for fragmentation, so against an armored combatant the weapon is less efective. However, there is a contreversy as to wether the bullet has any actual efective penetration. A test preformed on balistics gell and live pigs by an American arm's expert, Dr. Martin Facker, indicated that the 5.45, in his words was "No more effective, even at close range, than a hand-gun bullet." This comes from a comparison to damage from a 9x19MM FMJ round. However, the 5.45 would have much better armor penetration and this is under heavy contreversy.
The Tumbling Effect is bassed on something called a 'temporary stretch effect', which is exactly how it sounds. However, most organs are usualy too ridgid to be severely effected by this with the exception of the Liver (This was also the test with the pigs, but it should be noted that a Pig's internal organs are extremely similar to those of a human, down to the point where a human being can accept the organs of a pig and vice-versa) which was not as ridgid as other organs. This is also another point of controversy, as the tests results in many ways are not considered valid, attesting to the dificulty of testing Terminal Balistics with any kind of round.
Being a lighter round, the AK-74's 5.45MM ammo is likely more acurate, and some results have indicated that it's tumbling in a human body can produce effects with temporary stretch cavities that are similar to 7.62MM and Tungsten-Penetrator, non fragmentation 5.56MM rounds.
I know alot of this sounds contradictory, but testing how bullets affect a live subject is tricky to do. Personaly, I beleve the stories of the Afghan milita who coined the rounds 'The Poision Bullet' after the injuries they were given.
The round is a contreversial one, as many in the Russian defense feild debate as to the continued use of it over 7.62MM or adopting 5.56 or some other medium-strength round. In fact, from things I have heard, Russian Troops in Chechneya will often use AK-47's over the AK-74 for the missions they go on. And recently, Kalashnikov made an AK type that fires 7.62MM, but is constructed similarly to the AK-74. (This is one of the Ak-100 series.)
That's about it. Hope that helps!
Reportedly, the 5.45MM bullet was designed primarily for fragmentation, so against an armored combatant the weapon is less efective. However, there is a contreversy as to wether the bullet has any actual efective penetration. A test preformed on balistics gell and live pigs by an American arm's expert, Dr. Martin Facker, indicated that the 5.45, in his words was "No more effective, even at close range, than a hand-gun bullet." This comes from a comparison to damage from a 9x19MM FMJ round. However, the 5.45 would have much better armor penetration and this is under heavy contreversy.
The Tumbling Effect is bassed on something called a 'temporary stretch effect', which is exactly how it sounds. However, most organs are usualy too ridgid to be severely effected by this with the exception of the Liver (This was also the test with the pigs, but it should be noted that a Pig's internal organs are extremely similar to those of a human, down to the point where a human being can accept the organs of a pig and vice-versa) which was not as ridgid as other organs. This is also another point of controversy, as the tests results in many ways are not considered valid, attesting to the dificulty of testing Terminal Balistics with any kind of round.
Being a lighter round, the AK-74's 5.45MM ammo is likely more acurate, and some results have indicated that it's tumbling in a human body can produce effects with temporary stretch cavities that are similar to 7.62MM and Tungsten-Penetrator, non fragmentation 5.56MM rounds.
I know alot of this sounds contradictory, but testing how bullets affect a live subject is tricky to do. Personaly, I beleve the stories of the Afghan milita who coined the rounds 'The Poision Bullet' after the injuries they were given.
The round is a contreversial one, as many in the Russian defense feild debate as to the continued use of it over 7.62MM or adopting 5.56 or some other medium-strength round. In fact, from things I have heard, Russian Troops in Chechneya will often use AK-47's over the AK-74 for the missions they go on. And recently, Kalashnikov made an AK type that fires 7.62MM, but is constructed similarly to the AK-74. (This is one of the Ak-100 series.)
That's about it. Hope that helps!
The_Zergling
Junior Member
Kampfwagen said:
Live testing on pigs? I understand the need (?) to test on a real body, but shooting them while they're still alive?
Who knows. The point here is not just to see the physical damage, but also the mental image.(How bad it hurts and it can cause pain.)
I kind of don't know how pigs would react to pain, though..............
I just looked at the velocities and the barrel length of the two rounds (7.62 and 5.8, close enough)
7.62(type 81/AK-47):
Velocity: ~750 m/s
Barrel length: 445mm/414mm
5.8 (type 95)
Velocity: ~930 m/s
Barrel length: 520mm/463mm (Modern Firearms/Sinodefence, 520 is pretty farfetched for a 720mm gun)
That's a pretty big difference.
Maybe the smaller rounds should trade in some powder for more lead? Shorter barrel?
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As for China, I think they realized the problem and that's why they made the steel core round?
I kind of don't know how pigs would react to pain, though..............
I just looked at the velocities and the barrel length of the two rounds (7.62 and 5.8, close enough
)7.62(type 81/AK-47):
Velocity: ~750 m/s
Barrel length: 445mm/414mm
5.8 (type 95)
Velocity: ~930 m/s
Barrel length: 520mm/463mm (Modern Firearms/Sinodefence, 520 is pretty farfetched for a 720mm gun)
That's a pretty big difference.
Maybe the smaller rounds should trade in some powder for more lead? Shorter barrel?
-----
As for China, I think they realized the problem and that's why they made the steel core round?
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Most of the problem is that the round of the 5.56mm over penitrates not under penitrates ( To clarify the .22 round is a small low powered round when fired in to a human skull at close range the round hace the vlosity to enter but not to leace so it bounces around. the Civilian .223 round has lessenergy then the military 5.56mm round) the rounds go clean through. there energy does not cause the damage you want to put some one down. the round was built to punch through russian troops in body armour not finatics in cotton. If we were using the 5.8 Chines rounds in operations today the same issues would come up. the main reasion for the 6.8 is that it's built to go for a longer range but more importently not to over penitrate. the round is doing some thing it was never intended to do.
Yeah, as I said in my previous posts, in all my experience with the .223 remington, it can't even punch through an older Lincoln Towncar's passenger door very easily. I emptied a 20 round clip from my uncle's Bushmaster into the passenger door area and only 3 or 4 actually went all the way through the heavy steel door, and I wasn't any more than 30 feet away. My AK, on the other hand would punch all the way through both sides of the car, the reason for this is because the slower velocity of the AK round makes it so that it retains most of its original weight and instead of fragmenting it tumbles and ripped huge chunks of metal out of the driver side door when the bullets exited. When the faster .223 round hit the door it probably just fragmented into nothing and that's why it had a hard time penetrating.
As I said before, if I were to go jump into a fox hole, my first weapon of choice definatly would not be my uncle's AR.
As I said before, if I were to go jump into a fox hole, my first weapon of choice definatly would not be my uncle's AR.
MadMax
Junior Member
ive heard several different things now in this thread as to the behavior of the 5.45mm ammuniton. unlike the 5,56 which is designed to fragment the 5.45 is designed to cause hydraulic shock. the bullet is longer and more streamlined then the 5.56 and is just on the brink of instability in flight. it as a small hollow space at the front which causes it to yaw at a 90 degree angle when it enters the boddy. it will do this reliably out of a 20 inch barrel or a 12 inch the 5.56 requires a 20 inch barrel to acheive the velocitys requierd for it to fragment reliably.