Falklands War, 1982, Thread

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Pusser01

Banned Idiot
Hi Obi Wan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

If either Invincible, Hermes or both had been lost with the majority of their air wing, do you think it would have been possible for the UK to continue the fight?
I guess firstly it would have come to political will after suffering a major loss.
The second would be equipment replacement.

If the majority of the Sea Harriers had been lost, would the Harrier GR3 equipped with AIM9L & receiving support from of the 2 prototype HAS2(AEW) that were deployed on Illustrious, been an acceptable replacement?

Obviously Illustrious could have covered Invincible if the worst had happened, but what about Hermes?
How long do you think it may have taken to pull Bulwark out of reserve, fitted out to an acceptable standard to support air ops eg. fitting ski ramp etc?

I know these are strictly hypothetical, but am just interested in your opinion as to whether they were possible.

Cheers
Sam
 

Pusser01

Banned Idiot
Hi Guys, I did find the blog attached which pretty dispels the myth of Invincible sinking
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Just to fair though, I've also attached the website of the main authority that insists the Invincible was sunk
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I'll let you decide which one is more likely.
If this post is inappropriate please let me know & I'll remove it straight away.

Cheers
Sam
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Oh for goodness sake....
We have covered this burned that fire to charcoal.
If the British or the US or both could build a replacement Carrier in the space of a few weeks then the USN should be a thousand ship Navy! It's like Star destroyer technology level. If a nation could Crank out a ship the size of an invincible class light carrier inside a period of 3 months ( I am being generous) then in the time it takes to build a Nimitz or Ford class super carrier they could built a ship almost a mile long. They could Crank out ships by the hundred in a few years. That level of technology does NOT EXIST ON THIS EARTH!!

Conspiracy theories are some people's means of coping with events that defy there understanding. The Argentines lost to what they believed to be a fallen power that wouldn't fight. There forces inflicted heavy damage to the RN and it seemed like victory was all but there's except they lost. So when they saw ships they were told had been sunk still afloat, they needed some reason to explain it other than that there own press and government was not telling the truth. So conspericy theories. Look at other events that have spawned the same. The Assassiinations of the 60s, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, Flight 007, the Trump Presidential election, the death of Princess Diana, ancient Aliens. When people just cannot accept what happened they will create a fantasy and claim it as reality well connecting any coincidence, error, mistake or outright lie as solid evidence confirming there conseved notions.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Hi Obi Wan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

If either Invincible, Hermes or both had been lost with the majority of their air wing, do you think it would have been possible for the UK to continue the fight?
I guess firstly it would have come to political will after suffering a major loss.
The second would be equipment replacement.

If the majority of the Sea Harriers had been lost, would the Harrier GR3 equipped with AIM9L & receiving support from of the 2 prototype HAS2(AEW) that were deployed on Illustrious, been an acceptable replacement?

Obviously Illustrious could have covered Invincible if the worst had happened, but what about Hermes?
How long do you think it may have taken to pull Bulwark out of reserve, fitted out to an acceptable standard to support air ops eg. fitting ski ramp etc?

I know these are strictly hypothetical, but am just interested in your opinion as to whether they were possible.

Cheers
Sam
Interesting,
For me dépends number of Argentinian fighters-bombers again in operations + or - 50 % and more boring according date occured soon or less or more during the war thinking in May Argentina could have win sure, June so late.

But also in this case if UK don' t have CV quite sure Argentina more offensive with her warships even after have lost Belgrano by ex.

But for Victory conditions, politic not sure after the UK CV losses the war would have continued

Illustrious arrrive the 28 august the more soon possible so completely sure not usable for the War or if she It lasted longer by ex without CV RN retired temporarily her ships and come again after.

Also without CV UK dépends especialy AAW DDGs less efficient in coastal waters as AM-39 coz relief but these combattants was much less powerful than Type 45 AEGIS like can engage much more targets with better missiles especialy anti-missiles but to consider there are" only " 6 Darings
RN in 1982 have 13 : 1 Bristol + 4 County + 8 Sheffields and even if new is better if he is destroyed same thing than other and reason why the number remains important.
 
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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Hi Obi Wan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

If either Invincible, Hermes or both had been lost with the majority of their air wing, do you think it would have been possible for the UK to continue the fight?
I guess firstly it would have come to political will after suffering a major loss.
The second would be equipment replacement.

If the majority of the Sea Harriers had been lost, would the Harrier GR3 equipped with AIM9L & receiving support from of the 2 prototype HAS2(AEW) that were deployed on Illustrious, been an acceptable replacement?

Obviously Illustrious could have covered Invincible if the worst had happened, but what about Hermes?
How long do you think it may have taken to pull Bulwark out of reserve, fitted out to an acceptable standard to support air ops eg. fitting ski ramp etc?

I know these are strictly hypothetical, but am just interested in your opinion as to whether they were possible.
At the start of the War, as the Task Force was sailing south, the expectation was a high level of losses on the British side, possibly as high as 75% of the Sea Harrier force. Remember the two carriers only had 20 Sea Harriers between them, of 31 built to that date and there were only another 9 airframes available. 899NAS, the Training sqn had given up all 10 of it's aircraft to the two frontline sqns 800 and 801. They then set about bringing the remaining airframes forward from storage or maintenance to form a third frontline sqn, 809NAS. It was hoped to equip them with 10 aircraft but only eight could be provided. One had to be retained for trials work in the UK and the others could not be made serviceable in time.

Because of this limit on the number of Sea Harriers available, a sqns worth of RAF Harrier GR3s were hurriedly modified to fire Sidewinders so they could be used as attrition replacements. !0 of these aircraft equipped 1(F) sqn RAF and after other modifications so they could operate from a carrier deck (tie down points on the undercarriage and a modification to the inertial guidance system so it could be aligned on a moving deck rather than a stationary airfield)
After these alterations these 10 GR3s joined the 8 FRS1s of 809 aboard Atlantic Conveyor for the journey south.

So reinforcement aircraft were on the way. The other side of the coin is the carriers themselves. In 1982 options were limited:
1. HMS Bulwark R08. Hermes half sister, decommissioned march 1981 and laid up in Portsmouth Harbour. She had been stripped of many fixtures and fittings prior to scrapping, but work did commence on refitting her, her boilers received new fire bricks. Work was soon stopped though as the amount of work required meant she could not be made ready before the war would be over either way. Post war there were plans put forward to refit her to provide a floating accommodation block and heliport in Stanley harbour, but nothing was done and she was scrapped in March 84.
2. HMS Illustrious R06. She was fitting out on the River Tyne and not expected to be ready for trials until spring 83. Work was speeded up, a few corners cut and she was ready for sea in 12 weeks! She sailed for the South Atlantic in July and relieved Invincible on station in August. This was probably the most realistic prospect of a replacement carrier.
3. USS Iwo Jima LPH2. The US Government during the war offered to transfer the USS Iwo Jima to the RN as a replacement carrier if needed, but the RN would have to provide a crew, although the deal would involve a small number of US civilian 'contractors' experienced in the operation of the ship's systems, which were not standard equipment in the RN. The offer was not taken up in the end.
At least one USN Carrier battle group was put on standby to sail to the South Atlantic to join the Task Force if we lost a carrier, but this was only after the San Carlos Landings, the USA having dropped neutrality by this point and taken a side. Having gotten this far, the US couldn't afford to have it's most important ally lose the war.
4. 'Arapaho'. This is the name of the project (which pre dated 1982) to convert large container ships into emergency carriers, by loading them up with pre fitted containers housing ready made workshop facilities, self defence missile systems and guns and even a prefabricated flight deck which like the containers could be 'bolted on' to the ship's deck quickly:SCADS.jpg
The project, also known as SCADS (Ship Containerised Air Defence System) was never tried out in full, Atlantic Conveyor was quickly fitted out as an aircraft transport without any maintenance facilities as the need was to get more aircraft to the war zone quickly. Three more ships were given a 'partial Arapaho' conversion, MVs Astronomer, Atlantic Causeway and Contender Bezant received a hangar forward for up to four Sea King Helicopters and a midships flight deck. No ski jump, runway or defensive armaments were fitted due to time constraints. Postwar The MV Astronomer was taken on charter for a more comprehensive conversion using containers manufactured for the USN, but not yet trialled at sea. Again the conversion only entailed a hangar forward for four Sea Kings and a midships flight deck, Renamed RFA Reliant she tested the concept out over several years, until relieved by the Contender Bezant which had been purchased outright for a fuller conversion to a helicopter carrier, becoming the RFA Argus:RFA-Reliant-3.jpg RFA Argus A135 04.jpg Interestingly neither ship was equipped to operate Sea Harriers though both were capable of transporting them (Argus could carry up to 12) as ferry carriers. Vertical take off places strict operating limits on Harrier type aircraft in terms of payload, fuel load range etc, so is only used for short hops and transfers between ships.
Had Either carrier been lost, it would not necessarily have meant the loss of all her aircraft; those airborne at the time could land aboard almost any other ship of the Task Force. Those still on deck and not damaged or destroyed in the attack could probably be launched to clear the deck depending on the damage to the ship. Hermes would have been by far the more important loss as she carried two thirds of the aircraft on the carriers, so the Argentine obsession with her smaller running mate Invincible is a little odd...

Cheers
Sam
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
Hi Obi Wan, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.

If either Invincible, Hermes or both had been lost with the majority of their air wing, do you think it would have been possible for the UK to continue the fight?
I guess firstly it would have come to political will after suffering a major loss.
The second would be equipment replacement.

If the majority of the Sea Harriers had been lost, would the Harrier GR3 equipped with AIM9L & receiving support from of the 2 prototype HAS2(AEW) that were deployed on Illustrious, been an acceptable replacement?

Obviously Illustrious could have covered Invincible if the worst had happened, but what about Hermes?
How long do you think it may have taken to pull Bulwark out of reserve, fitted out to an acceptable standard to support air ops eg. fitting ski ramp etc?

I know these are strictly hypothetical, but am just interested in your opinion as to whether they were possible.

Cheers
Sam

The Royal Navy also used its mobility to build up a forward operating base at Ascension Island that would shuttle tankers and other replenishment ships to the task force, allowing it to stay at sea around the islands. This persistence allowed the Royal Navy to “shape the battlefield” in the Falkland/Malvinas and set the conditions of the coming battle in favor of their forces, weather it utilized one or two carriers. By using the inherent mobility of sea power, the Royal Navy was able to engage in battle when it chose, and deny Argentine forces targets when they attempted to strike back. Further, this operational mobility allowed the British to make their landings at a time and place of their own choosing. This prevented the Argentine forces from massing against a force that was vulnerable while landing, and eventually allowed the British to engage Argentine ground forces.


The flip side is, once a fleet has landed its ground force, it is tied to its objective. It has to remain on station to defend the logistical lifeline for those forces. This negates the operational mobility, and in effect leaves them tactically immobile. Argentina seized upon this to launch its heaviest strikes, sending up to 75 sorties to smash the invasion. While the aviators were stunningly aggressive, they paid an awful price, with losses of up to 15% in one day. No air force can long withstand that. And their attacks on the supporting warships meant that they failed to destroy the real threat- the amphibious ships that were actually landing the landing force. Still, the Royal Navy was not operating in a political vacuum. Had enough Royal Navy ships been sunk, political and popular support from the home front might have evaporated. The failure of the Argentines to realize their bombs were not exploding until after the landing operations complete, meant they didn’t correct their tactics. Had they changed tactics even slightly in the first day, they might have sunk as many as twice as many British ships. The ability of Britain to sustain those losses (regardless of the vessel type) must be questioned.
 

b787

Captain
The Royal Navy also used its mobility to build up a forward operating base at Ascension Island that would shuttle tankers and other replenishment ships to the task force, allowing it to stay at sea around the islands. .
The Mistakes Argentina made, were very well exposed by Martin Balza; Argentina should had extended the airstrip in the Islands, this would had pushed away the carriers, allowing the Daggers and Skyhawk from the continent refuel there and even go back to the continent.
This you will see would had limited the air cover and basically would had reduced the fleet`s ability to operate.

However there was never such move this was result of the idea there was not going to be any war among the Argentine military

However you have to see that Galtieri never really wanted a military solution but a political one, he knew he was not fighting England but NATO, he did not want to get into the Soviet camp, the risk was a 1961 missile crisis like the one that happened in Cuba.

He knew the dictators in South America were anti-communist, this meant Brazil could had turned against him at the long run.


So he limited the military involvement and tactics available, but he did a few important victories, he brought the issue again as a territorial dispute, he brought Latin America to support him and the UN, he brought Brazil to see South America as a collective issue.


He did well in some way and to see that see

A UN commission has ruled that the disputed Falkland Islands are part of the maritime territory of Argentina, lending a boost to its sovereignty claims on the archipelago. The UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf (CLCS) ratified a 2009 proposal from Buenos Aires and fixed the limit of its territory at 200 to 350 miles from the coast.

Argentina's foreign ministry said its maritime territory in the South Atlantic Ocean had expanded by 660,000 square miles (1.7 million square kilometres) and as a result, it includes the Falkland Islands and its surrounding waters. However, the decision does not grant Argentina sovereignty over the islands themselves, which are under British protection


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