Falklands War, 1982, Thread

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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
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Seacat

Seacat became obsolete due to increasing aircraft speed and the introduction of
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, sea-skimming
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. In these cases, the manually guided subsonic Seacat was totally unsuited to all but head-on interceptions and then only with adequate warning. A Seacat version was tested for intercepting targets flying at high speed near the water surface. This version used a radar altimeter, which kept the missile from being guided below a certain altitude above the surface and hence prevented the operator from flying the missile into the water. This version was never ordered.
Despite being obsolete, Seacat was still widely fielded by the Royal Navy during the Falklands war. Indeed, it was the sole anti-aircraft defence of many ships. However, unlike the modern and more complex
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and
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systems, Seacat rarely misfired or refused to respond, in even the harshest conditions. It was capable of sustained action, which compensated for its lack of speed, range and accuracy; and, more importantly, it was available in large numbers.
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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
let us go by parts.

British sources in the 1982 denied from the beginning any claim made by Argentina except when there were POW or Basically they could not hide it anymore remember the Argentine also had TV and cameras in 1982.
Argentine TV and press in 1982 were strictly controlled by the Junta. UK press and foreign press with the Task Force were not controlled to anything like the same extent. BBC Reporter Brian Hanrahan aboard Hermes reported the first air strike launched on Stanley on 1st May by saying "I'm not allowed to reveal how many aircraft were launched, but I can say that I counted them all out, and I counted them all back." That was the extent of British reporting restrictions. It was rather pointless, as anyone paying attention (including the Argentine Government) already knew she had 12 Sea Harriers aboard at the time. They were after all displayed on deck when she sailed from Portsmouth... There was no hesitation in reporting our losses beyond giving time for relatives to be informed prior to public notification. Every ship we lost, we admitted to losing. Every aircraft that was lost was admitted to.


You mention the Invincible, what about Prince Andrew duke of York saying in 2012 admitting he was aboard it during a missile attack? only missile Argentina had to do that was an Exocet and the distance obviously is from an Etendard. plus Argentina has claimed that since 1982
At the time Prince Andrew was a serving Sea King pilot with 820NAS aboard Invincible. They carried out ASW patrols on a round the clock basis. It later emerged the helicopters were given an improvised missile decoy duty, where bundles of chaff would be literally thrown out of the helicopter to decoy radar guided missiles like Exocet. That missile is a sea skimmer, and the helicopters flew these missions at a couple of hundred feet above sea level, so that if a missile locked on to the chaff one of them had dispensed, the helo itself could not be hit by the missile as it's altitude could not be changed (after all it was an anti ship missile, and ships don't rise out of the water all that much). So he and his colleagues performed an important defensive task but he himself was in no particular danger.

Beyond that, any recollections he has of being under attack, well all air raids detected on the fleet were signalled to all ships of the CVBG, regardless of which one was directly being attacked. The matter has been investigated, the Skyhawks attacked the type 21 Frigate HMS Avenger. Invincible was 30 miles further away at that point. The best evidence you have is a former Naval officer who recalls the air Raid warning going off on his ship (and every other ship in the Task Force)?

Former Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner tried to hire Bob Ballard, the man who found the Titanic, Yorktown and the Bismarck, to search for the wreck of the Invincible. He laughed at her...


You press is not better.
Our press has many faults. Falsely reporting ships sunk when they aren't or aircraft shot down that weren't isn't one of them. There is often bias in the reporting of facts, but the facts have to be correct.


A true historian questions both sides, also you have to understand in the heat of battle 28 sea harriers can mean a total of 28 harriers of all versions, you are trying to go into technicalities and minor mistakes the press may have committed.
So claiming HMS Hermes as sunk twice and the SS Canberra as sunk twice are minor mistakes...


I can say 28 Harriers and England had 38 there.
in April 1982 there were only 31 SEA Harriers in EXISTENCE. 28 went to the South Atlantic. 22 came back. The other 10 Harriers used were RAF GR.3s, not SEA Harriers

But as a Historian, you have to think too the Argies/Argentinos also are human and lied, so i also doubt 28 Harriers.
No one is denying the Argentines are Human. At the time Argentina was not a free country with a free press, it was a Military Dictatorship, one which had a reputation for treating it's own people extremely harshly, including kidnapping, torture, rape and murder. The 'Disappeared', I believe they are known as in Argentina. Including those dissidents who were flown out over the sea in Argentine Air Force aircraft and thrown out, bound and helpless, at altitude over the sea. I grieve for the Argentine Victims of their own Government. That's the regime we were fighting. It is VERY understandable that the people of the Falklands Islands then and now want nothing to do with Argentina.


In my personal opinion there is a possibility maybe 1 or 2 harriers may have been shot down in air to air i give some credibility, because Generalizations are wrong, i think there are reasons to believe England hides losses by saying these were accidents, i must doubt both sides, why because both sides gain by hiding information and both sides have different accounts.
So i think England very likely lost around 10 Harriers in combat operations and that number goes well with the 2012 claim by Martin Balza`s account
Opinions are all very well. We are dealing in facts. There is no evidence that any Sea Harriers or Harriers were shot down in air to air combat, not because of any special attributes of the Sea Harriers themselves, simply because the Argentine Air Force stopped trying after the Vulcan raids. The Mirage IIIs were withdrawn to protect the Capital Buenos Aires and other key locations, taking them out of the fight. What remained, the Daggers and Skyhawks were used on bombing missions, not to intercept the Sea Harriers. In the opinion of the Sea Harrier pilots, this was a tactical error on the Argentine part, as the Task Force was so short of aircraft if the Argentines had made an all out offensive against the SHARs, even if they sustained a much higher loss rate (even three Mirages lost for every Sea Harrier downed) it would have ended the war in Argentina's favour much sooner. We simply didn't have many Sea Harriers built and nearly all of them went south. Argentina had more aircraft. We were outnumbered 10 to 1. That is a tactical advantage the Argentines should have exploited, but failed to do so.
 

b787

Captain
No one is denying the Argentines are Human. At the time Argentina was not a free country with a free press, it was a Military Dictatorship, one which had a reputation for treating it's own people extremely harshly, including kidnapping, torture, rape and murder.
Interesting but you did not address Prince Andrew acknowledged being aboard HMS Invincible while there was a missile attack.

Second why you think i have to believe England when you have a History of Imperialism disguised as democracy?


Why i have to believe an imperial power with imperial colonial interests in Latin America?

The problem is you have only one side version, as a Latin American i will not believe your propaganda of free press simply because a Democracy is no guarantee there are not lies, Humans kill and lie in any political system, specially when England has a History of invasions to Argentina and support from Dictators like Pinochet.see your Thatcher did not have any trouble talking to a killer like Pinochet
but you have free press, yeah right i have to believe you always say the true
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where was your free press when your Thatcher was so cosy with Pinochet, why did she not say to him killer human right abuser?

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As a Historian your boasting of the free press, is to hide your imperialistic claims, so pretty much what you do is say we are saying the true because the other guy lies because we are democratic, yes you were Democratic but also imperialistic and Empires always try to justify their wars as liberation or bringing peace and prosperity, so pretty much you are no better than the junta because any empire is about power and power only can prevail by force not by the truth



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Why do not you read about England Attacking Buenos Aires in the XIX century, ah but you have free press and amnesia about your colonial past
 
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b787

Captain
Beyond that, any recollections he has of being under attack, well all air raids detected on the fleet were signalled to all ships of the CVBG, regardless of which one was directly being attacked. The matter has been investigated, the Skyhawks attacked the type 21 Frigate HMS Avenger. Invincible was 30 miles further away at that point. The best evidence you have is a former Naval officer who recalls the air Raid warning going off on his ship (and every other ship in the Task Force)?
you forget a detail A-4s never ever fired missiles, the only long ranged aircraft with missiles was the Etendard

the Skyhawks never carried SAM and antiship missiles, otherwise your fleet would had been entirely sunk;)
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next time try a better argument:)
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
you forget a detail A-4s never ever fired missiles, the only long ranged aircraft with missiles was the Etendard
Not at all. 'Air Raid Red' is the standard warning given on RN ships under attack. It is the same regardless of the type of aircraft attacking. If the Argentines were attacking with Etendards at any given time they would be firing at a group of ships, not a single one. The Carriers sailed as part of a group, not on their own. The Etendards would launch their missiles at between 30 and 20 miles away and the missile would simply lock onto the best target it could. Usually the largest it could detect on it's radar but that is it's Achilles heel as well. Chaff clouds look much bigger than any ship on radar and hence they are used to decoy missiles away. Sheffield didn't launch any for a number of reasons, Atlantic Conveyor was a merchant ship so not fitted with any defences.

Nobody pays much heed to Prince Andrew these days, he has gained a reputation since leaving the Navy as an arrogant over privileged playboy, and behaves more like a Z list celebrity (as in 'Do you know who I am?' in a disgruntled way that suggests he thinks himself far more important than he is). If he says he was present when an Air Raid Warning was sounded, unless he was in the ops room (CIC) standing over a radar console he would have no way of knowing exactly what type of aircraft was attacking and even then discerning the difference between Etendards and Skyhawks inbound is very difficult, unless the Etendards radar is detected. As a precaution, all air raids against the Task Force were treated as potential Exocet attacks. Prince Andrew is a bit of an old bore these days, prone to exaggerating his importance then and now.



the Skyhawks never carried SAM and antiship missiles, otherwise your fleet would had been entirely sunk;)
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next time try a better argument:)
We're all still waiting for you to provide ANY credible evidence other than tall tales and emotional reminiscences, none of which would stand up in court.

I stood on the deck of Invincible in 1984. She had not been attacked, was not sunk, nor was she a clone built in six weeks.

Please move on.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
you are repeating what yoou have been told and you have no questioned at all the information, basically you have been indoctrinated, a true historian questions what he has been told
no a conspericy theorists makes baseless accusations. A historian looks into the events and facts as they are recorded and and studies the evedence.
So far all you have is opinion based on accusations and baseless claims. To back your accusations you have missreprestented evedence. Including missquoting, posting images and statements without context, conveniently forgotten facts when they suited you only to remember them when they suited you.
 

b787

Captain
Nobody pays much heed to Prince Andrew these days
let me give you a good laugh
this documentary is from 2 Dec 2016, from Mexican tv, because he was in Mexico in December 2016 on a diplomatic mission, so the guy is pretty important


The guy is the son of the Queen come on it simply is you do not accept your own prince says He was aboard the Invincible during a missile attack. your answer was simply without any logic the A-4s did not carry missiles and an attack to the escorts of invincible even an attack to these ships mean your fleet was attacked as the Argentine pilots claimed and even the newspapers of 1982 claimed either attacks to the Hermes or Invincible, regardless of the details they claimed

see pictures of British ships attacked from an Argentine newspaper of 1982
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An a Magazine
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see no anti-ship missiles on the A-4s
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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I found this in another forum..

This is an excellent study of the alleged attack on Invincible.

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by
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» Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:06 pm

Hello everyone, just joined today at least in part because of this thread. If anyone can definitely answer this question it is me because I watched the whole thing. I was the Lynx Pilot from HMS Andromeda. There were three ships on picket duty out to the west of the main task force that day. Avenger to the south, Exeter in the middle and Andromeda to the north in a north south line. We were at 6000 feet ahead of everyone, listening for Etendard radar on our ESM. We picked it up and warned the fleet who went 'zippo 1' which meant get ready for Exocet attack. I turned the aircraft back towards the fleet in case there were any other aircraft around. One Exocet was fired although two Etendards were there (it was their last missile). Exeter was tracking the four A4s that carried on after the Exocet launch. We got in the way of the Sea Darts she fired and almost got shot down ourselves. However they took out two A4s. I saw it happen and expect that Avenger thought one was an Exocet. The other two A4s flew over Avenger and bombed her - they missed and got away. The Exocet locked onto Andromeda. I know this because the ops room had lock on detected from the Exocet seeker head on the ships UAA1 ESM equipment. Also Exeter watched it pass astern of them. Andromeda was the third ship there fitted with the Sea Wolf SAM which should have been capable of shooting it down. Unfortunately or more probably fortunately, it ran out of fuel and splashed before it got into engagement range. An interesting day all round!!!
Some facts:
One missile was fired and it fell into the sea.
Avenger did not shoot anything down.
The surviving A4s bombed HMS Avenger and missed.
HMS Invincible was miles away and was not damaged in any way.
I cannot be more definite than that but as an eye witness to the whole thing maybe it will nail this lie once and for all. As for the A4 pilots claiming to have flown down the deck of Invincible and bomb her - rubbish.
If anyone is interested I have a blog covering, amongst other things, my War experiences, taken from my log book. I did this last year to promote my books and if you look you will see adverts for them (sorry!)
I was involved in a lot of the anti - Exocet measures - my helicopter had a jammer fitted to seduce them and I trialled it at Aberporth against a live missile so we knew it worked.
I actually wrote my first novel - 'Sea Skimmer' about the Exocets because to this day I still don't know why the warheads never exploded - now the story behind this could be far more interesting than the Invincible conspiracy theory! As I couldn't find out why - I made it up - hence a novel.

If anyone is interested have a look at posts from last year starting in April on
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Prince Andrew is full of it. I read one newspaper where he says he was aboard Invincible during the alleged attack and another states he was flying an SH-3G as a decoy to attract the missile fired..

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Many presumed that Prince Andrew would be given a role that kept him out of harm's way and it later emerged that some members of the Cabinet had pushed for him to be given a desk job during the conflict but Andrew - and the Queen - insisted he serve on the front line.

The Daily Express front page of June 19 - five days after the Argentine surrender of the islands - revealed just how hair-raising that experience turned out to be.

It described how the royal had risked his life by acting as a decoy to lure Exocet missiles away from the vessels of the British Task Force.

"He flew a Navy helicopter close behind the carrier Invincible as Argentine jets screamed into the attack," reported the Daily Express's Robert McGowan from the Falklands capital Port Stanley.

"His nerve-wracking job was to make the missiles swerve towards the helicopter instead of the ship."

After landing on the Falklands following the end of hostilities, the prince described his role to journalists: "The helicopter is supposed to hover near the rear of the carrier presenting a large radar target. The idea is that the Exocet comes in low over the waves and is not supposed to go above a height of 27ft"
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
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Now if he was flying a Sea King he must have had a dopple-ganger! I know he's a Prince but no one can be at two places at the same time.

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”There are moments of hilarity that I remember,“ he said. ”We were under missile attack one day and a friend of mine and I were trying to finish a Rubik’s cube and just as the missile attack was taking place, we completed it and we were told to lie on the floor, take cover on the deck with this completed Rubik’s cube between us.

“I always thought: imagine what people would have thought if something ghastly happened and two bodies were found with a Rubik’s cube between them. It brought home to me how fragile we are as human beings”.
 
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