Falklands War, 1982, Thread

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
For example in this newspaper of 12 April 1982, they say England will try to nullify the 25 de Mayo Aircraft carrier with the superior nuclear submarines.
And they succeeded, The Sinking of the Belgrano happened and the Veinticinco de Mayo went back to port. Like the German Navy, Once there major capital ships were placed at risk, The Argentines Nullified them by never placing them into the action.
Elm Zurwalt, an american military ex official in 1982, that said the Skyhawk has longer range than the Harrier.
And it does, but by being forced to rely on their Air bases They were placed in a position where they had to fly for hundreds of miles to reach their targets. The Harriers were far closer to the Falklands There shorter range was not as much of an issue to them.

As for the Argentine numbers I was going to write almost exactly What Obi wrote.
The Sea Harriers were a relatively new type and any deployed by the Falklands war must have been delivered by the End of the First Quarter 1982. That means That The Hermes and Invincible are haulling the Bulk of the type in existence, No Margin for more or less. It be like claiming to have downed 18 B2 Spirit You would have basically killed the whole of it.
Throughout the War they claimed repeated sinkings of the Hermes the Invincible and more. The Junta was trying to make the War look good to the Home audience who for the Junta were already very unhappy and at the Edge of Revolution.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
It's quite simple. We sent 28 Sea harriers to the South Atlantic. 22 came back. 6 were lost and the reasons were given. Three to ground fire, three to accidents. After the Vulcan Bombing raid on Stanley Airfield on 1st May most of the Argentine Air Force's interceptors (the Mirage IIIs) were withdrawn from the battle to defend the capital and other High Value Targets. Those aircraft the remained, namely the Skyhawks and Daggers (Israeli built copies of the Mirage, but without radar) were primarily ground attack aircraft and went into combat with just bombs, no air to air missiles generally speaking.

The only weapons they had to use against other aircraft were their cannons, and to be of use they'd have to get behind a target. So a pilot in a jet with no radar so he has to rely on the mk1 eyeball to detect an enemy aircraft, which has radar and is being directed to intercept him by ship based radar, and will approach from astern. The chances of the Skyhawk or Dagger pilot winning such an engagement are between slim and none. It has nothing to do with how 'Brave' anyone is. It's tactics, equipment and training. The only chance the Argentine pilots had was to sneak in at low level to avoid detection, attack quickly and run home before they were intercepted. Some were lucky, some weren't.

If we'd had AEW aircraft available there would have been a lot more interceptions and a lot less successful attacks. A fighter can only be in one place at a time, but with AEW it can be in the RIGHT place at the right time a lot more often, so you can do a lot more with a small number of aircraft. It's how we won the Battle of Britain in 1940 when the RAF was grossly outnumbered by the Luftwaffe. We had radar direction of the fighters to make sure they were where they were needed, and not spread thinly patrolling all over the sky (as the Germans assumed they would be). I said some pages back Fighter Pilots do not regard themselves as chivalrous knights of the sky, they are cold blooded back stabbing assassins who aim to sneak up on their prey and kill them before they are noticed. That's the nature of the job.
 

b787

Captain
And you wonder why Argentine Newspapers and other press reports from the time are not given credence by anyone outside of Argentina?



I'm not saying the Argentine Air Force didn't shoot down 28 aircraft, it's just... they weren't ours! We counted them all out, and we counted them all back! Minus the six we lost of course!
Nice try but you never showed all the Harriers. so your number is not the total deployed there in 1982.
Not even the Harrier pictures showed the supposedly saved Harriers of he Atlantic conveyor, the number in the pictures is not evidence of the loses you suffered.

Because it is supposed the there were more than 30 Harriers deployed in 1982 and at no moment your evidence is of 15 Harriers in each carrier, plus you lost the conveyor since your carrier was not able to carry all of them due to the fact it carried helicopters too.

thus your evidence is no proof, by the way English people do lie too, of course BBC teach you do not lie, that is the reason i do not watch it

Air combat operations extended over a period of 45 days.

A total of 28 Sea Harrier F.R.S.1s and 10 Harrier G.R.3s took part in combat operations


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b787

Captain
And they succeeded, The Sinking of the Belgrano happened and the Veinticinco de Mayo went back to port. Like the German Navy, Once there major capital ships were placed at risk, The Argentines Nullified them by never placing them into the action.

.
still you do not get it, "the first victim of any war is truth" The British have like any nation the idea they can not lie, they always say the true, only a fool believe that, Argentina also exaggerated, but believing or thinking the British do not lie only a British man with pride and nationalism will believe that, thankfully i am not British, so i do not believe British Propaganda, but what you believe is related a lot where are you from.Argentina never has ever claim the same, thankfully in the times of internet i do not need to rely only in the BBC for information
 

b787

Captain
It's quite simple. We sent 28 Sea harriers to the South Atlantic. 22 came back. 6 were lost and the reasons were given. .
KkvZr.jpg
uhmm...... where were these Harriers in your pictures 14 Harriers in the Atlantic conveyor umm....h of course your total fleet was more than 30, at least 38

KkvZr.jpg



these shows not all came in the carriers
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the only way your picture was going to show your theory was true is many helos were downed making space for the many Harriers that came in the Atlantic conveyor
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
.... And You are not Bias?
Lets recount your Downed harriers
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No Denial here. Both are Harriers but how they crashed ?

This is Super 8mm Footage the Weapons fire was added Camera;s of that type would not be able to get audio. The Footage does not actually show a downing only an explosion that could be a bomb drop.

aircraft loses some photos of Harriers downed in 1982
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It's a Chunk of debris not conclusive It could be from a harrier it could not It could be from a wreck moved to where it is seen as a Trophy
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It could be A harrier or an argentine plane. It could be the same one as above
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It could be another Harrier or just as likely more debris of the same one
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
More of the harriers downed in the Falklands

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Nope same one as above In fact repost of image.
British Helo downed by the Argentine Lieutenant Miguel Ángel Giménez in 1982

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Could be the source of some of those "harrier chunks"

why do not you admit you can not prove your point, and you can not, i know you can not because


Obviously United Nations do not support your claims
Coventry sinking

Harrier shot down in 1982 over the Falklands/Malvinas
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Same harrier as Above different angle.
Harrier wreckage shot down in the Falklands/Malvinas
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That could be a harrier or could not.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
KkvZr.jpg
uhmm...... where were these Harriers in your pictures 14 Harriers in the Atlantic conveyor umm....h of course your total fleet was more than 30, at least 38

KkvZr.jpg



these shows not all came in the carriers
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the only way your picture was going to show your theory was true is many helos were downed making space for the many Harriers that came in the Atlantic conveyor
First Photo has a problem for you They are not the Same models
eaa1bb19c3c097326d864606c404fa61.jpg
The 8 grey models in your Photo are the FRS1 the 6 camo are the older Gr3
second photo I happen to have the Context
3rd May
Two Lynx helicopters from HMS Coventry and HMS Glasgow attacked two patrol craft. The patrol craft were actively engaged in the search for the two airmen from the Canberra shot down the previous day. The Lynx were both armed with the untried Sea Skua missile which had been rushed into service. The Coventry Lynx fired both missiles and sinks one of the craft. The Glagsow’s Lynx targets the Alferez Sobral and launches her two Sea Skua missiles. One of the missiles hits the bridge structure, killing the commanding officer and several ratings, but she remains afloat. Two days later she would limp into the Argentine main land port of Puerto Deseado. Neither airman from the Canberra was recovered.

A heavy fog descended over the Carrier Battle Group’s operating area.

Following the sinking of the Belgrano, Argentine warships are pulled back to operate in shallower water, where submarines would not follow, but at the same time placing them further away from their required operational area.

At RAF St Mawgan the launch of the first wave of Harriers of 1(F) Squadron is preceded by lengthy briefings which cover all the Rules of Engagement for maritime forces. Four aircraft launch at 09:30 to rendezvous with three Victor tankers in the overhead at about 25,000ft. The three to go south are Wg Cdr Squire, Flt Lt Harper, and Flt Lt Hare, a fourth aircraft flown by Flt Lt Rochford is the airborne spare in case of unserviceability.

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© Sqn Ldr Tony Harper
One of the tankers has difficulty taking on fuel and in the end the Victors renumber. However, the end result is that they have insufficient fuel to get all three GR.3s to Ascension Island; one must return to Banjul with the last tanker. The tanker is then to proceed on to Ascension Island that night. Wg Cdr Squire decides to send Flt Lts Harper and Hare on while he diverts. This sortie lasts 9 hours 15 mins which must rank as one of the longest Harrier sorties in history.

At Banjul the Harrier and Victor are met by many eager and interested people. After refuelling the aircraft, there is a chance to have a welcome drink, and plan the leg to Ascension Island, most of which will be flown in darkness. In the event, there was a lot of medium/high level cloud with frequent electrical storms to add unwanted disorientation. The three refuelling brackets are successful. With just under 100nm to go Wg Cdr Squire departed the tanker for a straight in approach to the humped runway at Wideawake, eventually landing at 22:15 after eleven hours flyin

Losses today

Royal Air Force/Royal Navy

Nil

Argentine Forces

MB339 – 1st Naval Attack Sqn – Nr Cape Pembroke – Operational Accident crashed into ground returning to Port Stanley in bad weather. Lt Benitez Killed
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Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Ah you are being deliberately obtuse again. I said 28 SEA HARRIERS. I should have mentioned the 10 Harrier GR.3s of the RAF as well, but the topic was focussing on the Sea Harrier, which is a different aircraft operationally from the GR.3. In the same way a Mirage III is a different aircraft from an IAI Dagger, despite appearances.
 

b787

Captain
Ah you are being deliberately obtuse again. I said 28 SEA HARRIERS. I should have mentioned the 10 Harrier GR.3s of the RAF as well, but the topic was focussing on the Sea Harrier, which is a different aircraft operationally from the GR.3. In the same way a Mirage III is a different aircraft from an IAI Dagger, despite appearances.
Try to understand what i said, i said the British version and Argentine versions do not match.

28 Sea Harriers i said is an exaggeration, however it does not prove the British version, Martin Balza in 2013 says 12-14 Harriers downed by ground fire.Now if you say to me we, British do not lie, Argies do well sorry, that is not historical.

You are resolute to think the Harrier could not have been beaten by Mirage III, i mentioned you the RAAF Mirage IIIs did beat the same British pilots in mock combat in 1983.

England admits to have lost at least 10 harrier aircraft during the war, however you claim some were in accidents off the carrier and under suspicious circumstances .


as a Historian you can not take one version as the only truth because humans lie, when both sides agree is the end of the debate, the issue is settled.


I said in my opinion England lost at least 10 aircraft in combat operations, that matches Balza`s claims and British accepted loses because i think like many England is hiding operational loses.
Of course that is my opinion, but that will not change the claims from both sides, that is the subjectivity of each person, you are British you want to believe the Harrier was a superjet, that is your freedom, but it will not change the opinions of millions in both sides of the Atlantic who believe different versions of the war
 
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