Falklands War, 1982, Thread
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I don't have to, The Question was one of where allegiances sat Soviet or pro US. IF the US only supported Democratic states It would be a beautiful world, but hardly Pragmatic. The US Congress Imposed Embargos on Argentina and Chile due to Human rights issues. Now was it perfect? NO. Were there other Human rights Abusers who should have been sanctioned? Yes. but history is history and we are not here to debate those cases. only Argentina.
1979 in the Carter administration, Carter backed the FSLN(Sandinista National Liberation Front).
The Reagan Administration backed the Anti Communist elements the Contras but only in late 81 did that start. And the Contras did not get there major victory until 83. The Iran contra Affair started after August 85.
The Sandinistas who took power in 1970 and were still in power through 1990, and with the Carter Administration trying to work with them the Reagan Administration took over January 20 1981 though and changed the political wind. 180 degrees.
Now, yes the US was working with Argentina to train and aid the Contras in late 1981, But that was a minor operation. The US Relations to the UK were far larger.
So far your history is rocky to intentionally misleading at best.
Yes there was Blistering by the Argentines that they were planning on taking the Falklands. The US did know after all they bought the LVTP-7s from the US. A visiting british officer was even shown the brand new American made LVTP-7s that would be used with Argentines telling him they would be used for the "Malvinas"
No one outside of the Falklands really expected the Argentines to invade. Everyone felt it could have been solved with negotiations. HEck the Brits even Sold Some of the Weapons the Argentina used to them. The Blowpipe was a British missile used by Argentina and the British they did not Embargo until the war started.
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LVTP7.jpg
b787
Captain
Vulcan in Brazil after being intercepted with Shrikes hanging on hardpoints in June 3rd 1982
The question Terran of your history is wrong is because Argentine sources (videos and Documentaries) say Argentina expected a pay back for their help in Nicaragua, The Sandinistas took power in 1979
i can give even a very popular link in Spanish for the contras
If you want i can give documentaries in Spanish and from Argentina that say the same.
Also the OEA obliged the US to support Argentina
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
However The plans for invasion were probably not taken seriously, and the Carter Administration imposed embargo due to the "Dirty war" inside Argentina from 74 to 83. the embargo was imposed in 76, the British joined it in 82 after the war and was lifted in 98 by the Clintons.
The Actual invasion Operation Rosario though was a surprise move by the Junta, Who were on the Rocks in terms of public opinion. They wanted to make a move that would rally Patriotism.
Intelligence on the state of the UK parliament seemed to indicate that Thatcher Ministry would be willing to part with Hong Kong and the Falklands, And They believed that the new Female PM was a lightweight. Had they sent Ambassadors to hammer a deal Today the Malvinas would be flying Argentine flags, Thatcher would have had a far shorter term in office and the Argentine Air force and Navy would still be potent fighting force.
Launching the operation was delayed due to bad weather. which actually gave the british a stronger force on the island as the 68 Marines and 11 sailors was double the normal complement of the time. The Royal Marines had actually prepared and the Falklanders had noted activity before the operation including Air and naval forces. The Royal Marines force knew they were to small to actually defeat an invasion but they could put up a bloodied nose campaign to ensure the Argentines could not claim a peaceful annexation. Not spilling any blood was critical for the Argentines they wanted to paint the event as a Peaceful affair so it could be diplomatically recognized.
The Plan was 2 waves
Wave one was SF forces who were to split into two groups and assault government house and the Barracks to over power the Royal marines with Smoke, tear gass and flash bangs and seize them without a fight and take the Governor alive. Second wave of Argentine Marines numbering 800 men followed by another 2000 would ensure that the population and any remaining Royal Marines would not stand a chance. Final numbers though Ended up being around Argentine 600 Troops.
The operation began when March 31 ARA Santa Fe Formerly the USS Catfish A Balao class sub reconned point William Landing 14 Tactical divers group commandos near Cape Pembroke. They were spotted and as such invasion plans changed. They took a beach near Menguera Point. at 0430 hourse April 2nd they landed at Yorke Bay planted beacons, then seized a Lighthouse and airstrip.
The ARA Santísima Trinidad a Type 42 Destroyer built in Argentia based off Batch 1 British Specs was used on April 1/2 to deploy Naval commandos of the Tactical Divers Group in 21 Rigid hull inflatable boats for the operation. The Ship halted 500 meters off Mullet Creek.
84 members of the 1st Amphibious Commandos Group and a Small party of the 1st Marine infantry battalion loaded on the boats.
The Marines headed for Government house the Commando's for the Moody Brooks Barracks. They expected little resistance. They got none The building was empty. There is some controversy here. The Argentines say they used Tear gas and nothing more. The British Claim the Barracks was riddled with machine gun fire and white Phosphorus burns. Whatever the Case the Royal marines were not there the grenades explosions alerted them to the attack. and the Barracks itself was destroyed.
The group of 16 Argentine Marines meant to take Government force made their approach little did they know that there force was about to face the largest group of Royal marines on the island. at 0630 hours they made their first assault. The Marines held their ground and wounded the commander of the Argentine unit and a medic.
The ARA Cabo San Antonio a ship based off the American De Soto County class LST of the late 50's was used to deploy 20 Argentine LPTV7A1 Amtracks ( like this seen below) at Yorke Bay. These vehicles were being watched by a group of Royal Marines who at 0715 hours attacked with Anti tank rockets and Machine gun fire.
View attachment 35603
a number of Argentine Marines Dismounted and the British and Argentines exchanged fire with small arms, recoilless rifles and Mortars in a drawn out series of a running gunfight. with the Royal marines trying to get back to Government house.
at 0800 an attempt at a ceasefire was made and a defacto one was put in place only broken by small arms fire. Including 3 Argentine commandos who managed to enter The Residence of government house and well attempting escape were captured becoming the first Argentine POW's of the war.
during the action the Group that had attacked the Amtracs regrouped at government house. Eventually the Amtracs arrived and the surrender took place at 0930 hours.
The Argentines then made a bold and stupid move. they made the Royal marines pose for pictures in humiliation. likely aimed to try and assure no casualties to the World. it backfired British public sentiment was enraged, the war was about to start. the Royal marines were flown by C130 to Comodoro Rivadavia where they were loaded aboard a commercial flight to Uruguay then on to the UK.
A small section of Royal marines was still at large. They had been positioned as look outs to watch the Argentine Navy activity. They used a Zodiac boat to escape capture hid in the shadow of a polish fishing boat then landed and hid for another 2 days on April the 4th after destroying their weapons and equipment they surrendered.
On April 3. the UN security council passed resolution 503 demanding the Argentine withdrawal of that then council only Panama voted Against China, Poland, Spain and the USSR abstained. That same day the Argentines took South Georgia island
The Actual invasion Operation Rosario though was a surprise move by the Junta, Who were on the Rocks in terms of public opinion. They wanted to make a move that would rally Patriotism.
Intelligence on the state of the UK parliament seemed to indicate that Thatcher Ministry would be willing to part with Hong Kong and the Falklands, And They believed that the new Female PM was a lightweight. Had they sent Ambassadors to hammer a deal Today the Malvinas would be flying Argentine flags, Thatcher would have had a far shorter term in office and the Argentine Air force and Navy would still be potent fighting force.
Launching the operation was delayed due to bad weather. which actually gave the british a stronger force on the island as the 68 Marines and 11 sailors was double the normal complement of the time. The Royal Marines had actually prepared and the Falklanders had noted activity before the operation including Air and naval forces. The Royal Marines force knew they were to small to actually defeat an invasion but they could put up a bloodied nose campaign to ensure the Argentines could not claim a peaceful annexation. Not spilling any blood was critical for the Argentines they wanted to paint the event as a Peaceful affair so it could be diplomatically recognized.
The Plan was 2 waves
Wave one was SF forces who were to split into two groups and assault government house and the Barracks to over power the Royal marines with Smoke, tear gass and flash bangs and seize them without a fight and take the Governor alive. Second wave of Argentine Marines numbering 800 men followed by another 2000 would ensure that the population and any remaining Royal Marines would not stand a chance. Final numbers though Ended up being around Argentine 600 Troops.
The operation began when March 31 ARA Santa Fe Formerly the USS Catfish A Balao class sub reconned point William Landing 14 Tactical divers group commandos near Cape Pembroke. They were spotted and as such invasion plans changed. They took a beach near Menguera Point. at 0430 hourse April 2nd they landed at Yorke Bay planted beacons, then seized a Lighthouse and airstrip.
The ARA Santísima Trinidad a Type 42 Destroyer built in Argentia based off Batch 1 British Specs was used on April 1/2 to deploy Naval commandos of the Tactical Divers Group in 21 Rigid hull inflatable boats for the operation. The Ship halted 500 meters off Mullet Creek.
84 members of the 1st Amphibious Commandos Group and a Small party of the 1st Marine infantry battalion loaded on the boats.
The Marines headed for Government house the Commando's for the Moody Brooks Barracks. They expected little resistance. They got none The building was empty. There is some controversy here. The Argentines say they used Tear gas and nothing more. The British Claim the Barracks was riddled with machine gun fire and white Phosphorus burns. Whatever the Case the Royal marines were not there the grenades explosions alerted them to the attack. and the Barracks itself was destroyed.
The group of 16 Argentine Marines meant to take Government force made their approach little did they know that there force was about to face the largest group of Royal marines on the island. at 0630 hours they made their first assault. The Marines held their ground and wounded the commander of the Argentine unit and a medic.
The ARA Cabo San Antonio a ship based off the American De Soto County class LST of the late 50's was used to deploy 20 Argentine LPTV7A1 Amtracks ( like this seen below) at Yorke Bay. These vehicles were being watched by a group of Royal Marines who at 0715 hours attacked with Anti tank rockets and Machine gun fire.
View attachment 35603
a number of Argentine Marines Dismounted and the British and Argentines exchanged fire with small arms, recoilless rifles and Mortars in a drawn out series of a running gunfight. with the Royal marines trying to get back to Government house.
at 0800 an attempt at a ceasefire was made and a defacto one was put in place only broken by small arms fire. Including 3 Argentine commandos who managed to enter The Residence of government house and well attempting escape were captured becoming the first Argentine POW's of the war.
during the action the Group that had attacked the Amtracs regrouped at government house. Eventually the Amtracs arrived and the surrender took place at 0930 hours.
The Argentines then made a bold and stupid move. they made the Royal marines pose for pictures in humiliation. likely aimed to try and assure no casualties to the World. it backfired British public sentiment was enraged, the war was about to start. the Royal marines were flown by C130 to Comodoro Rivadavia where they were loaded aboard a commercial flight to Uruguay then on to the UK.
A small section of Royal marines was still at large. They had been positioned as look outs to watch the Argentine Navy activity. They used a Zodiac boat to escape capture hid in the shadow of a polish fishing boat then landed and hid for another 2 days on April the 4th after destroying their weapons and equipment they surrendered.
On April 3. the UN security council passed resolution 503 demanding the Argentine withdrawal of that then council only Panama voted Against China, Poland, Spain and the USSR abstained. That same day the Argentines took South Georgia island
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
If The Argentines Though the US would burn the UK for them, they were misguided!
The First actions after the news was to pass UNSC resolution 503 followed by shuttle diplomacy. The US could not side with The Argentine Actions and occupation by US treaty with the UK, Nor could it let the UK shred the Argentines Mediation was the best first action. and if you look at what happened The US Sec State was flying to both capitals.
The UK demand was clear they would negotiate but only if the Argentines withdrew their military forces.
The Argentines Scoffed at UK demands. They it seems did not believe the UK would fight until the fight started.
Had the Argentines withdrawn there military forces and left the Falklanders with maybe just a few police. Mediation could have nailed down a deal amiable to both sides.
British Forces were prepared for such even as they deployed.
faced with those options The Reagan Administration gave tacit support to the UK in hopes that the changing dynamics would push the Argentines to the Table.
The US needed the UK and Thatcher as history proves to round out the Cold war, And both the UK and Argentina were treaty allies with the US and giving open support to either side would have been a disaster.
"The 200 mile TEZ was a political invention indeed, NEITHER asked for by the RN or given any real importance by either side's armed forces. The Argentine Leadership at the time have said then and since they did not place any significance on the TEZ, neither did Adm Woodward and his staff. As far as both sides were concerned, the entire South Atlantic was a war zone and any forces belonging to the other side were fair game. This was acknowledged several days earlier by the Argentine Government. The TEZ was dreamt up by politicians without regard to any Military advice, and was a source of irritation to both sides. At no time was it ever stated that Argentine forces outside the zone would be safe from attack, or given fair warning prior to an attack. The Belgrano's Captain, Hector Bonzo, stated he knew his ship was at risk from attack, and also acknowledged his ship was in a holding pattern at the time it was sunk, NOT heading back to port. His ship, by his own admission, was a legitimate target, and you dishonour the members of his crew lost in the sinking by suggesting otherwise. They were not innocent victims murdered without warning, they were brave warriors who fell in battle, and should be remembered as such."
Correction of my earlier post. One word can make a lot of difference.
Correction of my earlier post. One word can make a lot of difference.
The Vulcan Bomber that force landed at Rio in 82 carrying a Shrike anti Radar Missile was one of five 'Black Buck' missions flown in the War. The first three Black Buck missions were bombing missions, intended to destroy the runway at Port Stanley air field, dropping 21x 1000lb 'Iron' Bombs, the final two were anti radar missions only with no bombs carried. The intention of these last two raids was to take out the Argentine Radars on the islands which had been used to track and direct attacks against Sea Harriers over the islands. The Argentines quickly figured out what was going on and the only defence against a Shrike attack is to switch off your radar, giving the missile no target to attack. More modern anti radar missiles in service today are able to 'remember' the location of radar sites after they have been switched off, and some can deploy a parachute, shut down their motor and 'wait' for a while until the target radar switches on again.
Back in 82 the Vulcan that landed in Brazil was a bit of an embarrassment to the UK government, but apart from the Shrike which had 'hung up' on it's pylon and could not be jettisoned, the bomber was otherwise unarmed. For diplomatic purposes the missile was officially described as a Sidewinder AAM for self defence (the Vulcans were never fitted for Sidewinders, though it wouldn't have been difficult. RAF Nimrod MPAs were fitted to carry four sidewinders for self defence, but the Vulcans were only wired up for Shrikes). I suspect the Brazilian Government didn't make too much fuss over the missile as it was an American missile and the US Government didn't want any secrets about it falling into the wrong hands. The Vulcan itself held no secrets technologically speaking, being an aircraft that was designed in the 1940s, built in the fifties and by 1982 in the process of being withdrawn from service. It's main radar for example was H2S, first introduced DURING WW2 when fitted to Lancaster Bombers! A type Argentina had operated postwar...
The Pylons used for the Shrike were a hasty improvisation themselves, the B mk2 Vulcans were originally built to carry the Skybolt Ballistic Missile in the early sixties, so had underwing hard points which apart from a few trials had never been used in service. New Pylons were hastily manufactured and fitted to a few aircraft specifically for the Shrike missions:
If the Brazilians had asked nicely, we might have donated that aircraft to a local museum. They are 'worth their weight in gold' these days...
Back in 82 the Vulcan that landed in Brazil was a bit of an embarrassment to the UK government, but apart from the Shrike which had 'hung up' on it's pylon and could not be jettisoned, the bomber was otherwise unarmed. For diplomatic purposes the missile was officially described as a Sidewinder AAM for self defence (the Vulcans were never fitted for Sidewinders, though it wouldn't have been difficult. RAF Nimrod MPAs were fitted to carry four sidewinders for self defence, but the Vulcans were only wired up for Shrikes). I suspect the Brazilian Government didn't make too much fuss over the missile as it was an American missile and the US Government didn't want any secrets about it falling into the wrong hands. The Vulcan itself held no secrets technologically speaking, being an aircraft that was designed in the 1940s, built in the fifties and by 1982 in the process of being withdrawn from service. It's main radar for example was H2S, first introduced DURING WW2 when fitted to Lancaster Bombers! A type Argentina had operated postwar...
The Pylons used for the Shrike were a hasty improvisation themselves, the B mk2 Vulcans were originally built to carry the Skybolt Ballistic Missile in the early sixties, so had underwing hard points which apart from a few trials had never been used in service. New Pylons were hastily manufactured and fitted to a few aircraft specifically for the Shrike missions:
If the Brazilians had asked nicely, we might have donated that aircraft to a local museum. They are 'worth their weight in gold' these days...
This thread is like reading a book. Well done to all members.
I saw this in an article posted by b787 and had to make a comment;
True the Shrike was designed to attack Soviet radar. But it was certainty not new. There were Shrikes aboard the ships I served John F Kennedy, Midway, Hancock,America & Nimitz from at least '71 onward. So it was not new in '82. Shrikes were designed in 1958 and first deployed in 1965. Shrike was removed from service in 1992.
I saw this in an article posted by b787 and had to make a comment;
True the Shrike was designed to attack Soviet radar. But it was certainty not new. There were Shrikes aboard the ships I served John F Kennedy, Midway, Hancock,America & Nimitz from at least '71 onward. So it was not new in '82. Shrikes were designed in 1958 and first deployed in 1965. Shrike was removed from service in 1992.
Nimrod with Sidewinder AAMs in 1982:
At the time the aircraft were jokingly described as the 'World's Largest Fighters', but the missiles were only for self defence against Argentine Long Range Recce aircraft such as their Boeing 707s, which had been used to track the task force on it's passage south.
At the time the aircraft were jokingly described as the 'World's Largest Fighters', but the missiles were only for self defence against Argentine Long Range Recce aircraft such as their Boeing 707s, which had been used to track the task force on it's passage south.- Status