F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[Brumby]

Jul 3, 2015


in the meantime, I was (almost) fooled by

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after F-35B IOC was described as such a success in
F-35 OT-1 By the Numbers

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while later the hard data were obtained (

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), made available in

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which you may (and some of you won't read to check this graphics:

which is yet another
F-35 OT-1 By the Numbers

so I have been skeptical about the official success stories, as in (recent examples posted here):

Firstly, welcome back from your self imposed hiatus. LOL.

With regards to your comments regarding operational testing (OT), I am not entirely clear what is your main point. It would be helpful if you wish to connect two events and their corresponding documents to reference specifically to specific contents within those document(s) that you wish to anchor your points. This will ensure greater clarity on the nature of your intended conversation.

I am taking the liberty to connect the dots and also to assume what is on your mind which I think is your contention on the degree, depth, complexity and realism of the operational testing relative to real world conditions. In other words, they are cosmetic rather than substantive testing.



The issue raised while reasonable is also highly subject to many qualifiers just as the proverbial question on "how long is a piece of string". In fact one of the key challenge in adequate testing of fifth generation platforms is putting together a threat environment sufficient to test their capabilities because after all they are designed to go against the most complex and advanced threats that could conceivably be placed in their path. Operational testing is not a snap shot event but a continuous stream of events to work on the capabilities of the platform.

Testing 5th generation platform effectiveness is a major challenge.

Jun 23, 2016
from inside: "... 88 sorties ... Seven F-35As ... June 6-17 ..." deployment, so it's, on average, almost exactly, one sortie per one day per one aircraft ... with no info about the duration of those flights

Setting up such test I believe is a complex exercise. In this particular situations, the focus was on how capable the F-35's were able to meet the mission task and not a test on sortie generation which you seem to imply.

Wednesday at 2:06 PM
from inside: "... the squadron received its first two F-35B aircraft on May 9 — three days after it completed its final flights with the Harrier. Officials did not immediately respond to a request about when the remaining joint strike fighters made by Lockheed Martin Corp. would join the squadron. ..." so in my opinion, the headline is pathetic

is all this just the business as usual? LOL

I remember reading a recent article reporting that the 2nd squadron will not have a full complement of aircraft until 2018. If you are equating a news headline description as a program problem you may be overly critical.

 

[FORBIN]

Jura, as you promised Budy your back with your friends Bravo !

Firstly, welcome back from your self imposed hiatus. LOL.

Yes sometimes a little unusual and a great teaser but it is a good guy franckly and honnest, polite also if not i ban him

Much improvments good things since you left but get back now the boy is on the good way now.

I have Rafale but i want he do good stuff for allies

 

[Jura The idiot]

Firstly, welcome back from your self imposed hiatus. LOL.

thank you, I also thank FORBIN for profiling me in
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-...os-and-pics-thread.t5796/page-346#post-404070

With regards to your comments regarding operational testing (OT), I am not entirely clear what is your main point.

my main point has been F-35 OT-1 was a farce, and I base this view on comparing the official success story to what later surfaced because of the Freedom of Information Act, as I posted in
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-...os-and-pics-thread.t5796/page-345#post-403979

what's your point in:

...
The issue raised while reasonable is also highly subject to many qualifiers just as the proverbial question on "how long is a piece of string". In fact one of the key challenge in adequate testing of fifth generation platforms is putting together a threat environment sufficient to test their capabilities because after all they are designed to go against the most complex and advanced threats that could conceivably be placed in their path. Operational testing is not a snap shot event but a continuous stream of events to work on the capabilities of the platform.

Testing 5th generation platform effectiveness is a major challenge.
View attachment 28892

View attachment 28893

? I should mention we're talking what's described in
F-35 Program Executive Office statement

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in particular:

The U.S. Marine Corps decision to make the F-35B ready for combat is the first significant event for the program.

Setting up such test I believe is a complex exercise. In this particular situations, the focus was on how capable the F-35's were able to meet the mission task and not a test on sortie generation which you seem to imply.

in this part I referred to

F-35 Software Runs Smoothly During Mountain Home Deployment

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and the first sentence of that article is

Software glitches have plagued the F-35 in recent months, but operators said they noticed a marked improvement during a June deployment where the aircraft did not experience any shutdowns.

so I was wondering if that June deployment was rigged to deliver yet another success story

I remember reading a recent article reporting that the 2nd squadron will not have a full complement of aircraft until 2018. If you are equating a news headline description as a program problem you may be overly critical.

if a pompous announcement of establishing a two-aircraft squadron could be a reason for criticism, then I would be critical, yes

 

[Brumby]

if a pompous announcement of establishing a two-aircraft squadron could be a reason for criticism, then I would be critical, yes

I will just pick on this as a illustrative discussion. I agree that the headline item for the article was somewhat misleading as reported and I quote ," Marine Corps Will Get Its Second F-35B Squadron This Week". In reality, there was a re-designation and change of command ceremony as the AV-8B Harrier-flying Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 211 became Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211. In effect, the unit took delivery of the first 2 F-35B's and will be sometime (presumably) before a complete squadron is assembled and ready for deployment. This is unfortunately an issue with choice of words and reporting rather than a program issue.

 

[FORBIN]

FY 2016 price

Price/Unit Cost:

The unit cost of the F-35A is $109.88 million (recurring cost) in FY 2016. The airframe costs $64.47 million, the

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engine costs $13.06 million, the avionics cost $16.74 million, whileother costs make up the remaining $15.61 million.

The unit cost of the F-35B is $121.33 million (recurring cost) in FY 2016. The airframe costs $71.81 million, the

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engine (coupled to the Rolls-Royce LiftSystem) costs $30.82 million, the avionics cost $16.33 million, while other costs make up the remaining $2.37 million.

The unit cost of the F-35C is $117.83 million (recurring cost) in FY 2016. The airframe costs $86.09 million, the

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engine costs $13.06 million, the avionics cost $16.36 million, while other costs make up the remaining $2.32 million.

Due to efficiency gains and process improvements,

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has been able to cut the number of labor hours required to produce an F-35, from 153,000 hours a copy in 2011, down to 50,000 hours by mid-2015. The company expects labor hours to drop even further to just 35,000 hours per airframe by 2020. These reductions should make Lockheed Martin able to offer the F-35 at a unit cost around $80 million by 2018/19.

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[FORBIN]

I will just pick on this as a illustrative discussion. I agree that the headline item for the article was somewhat misleading as reported and I quote ," Marine Corps Will Get Its Second F-35B Squadron This Week". In reality, there was a re-designation and change of command ceremony as the AV-8B Harrier-flying Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 211 became Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211. In effect, the unit took delivery of the first 2 F-35B's and will be sometime (presumably) before a complete squadron is assembled and ready for deployment. This is unfortunately an issue with choice of words and reporting rather than a program issue.

One a advantage AV-8B replaced allow to 5 remaining VMA to come back to 16 AV-8B now 14 and others for sustain the fleet.

There are currently 6 active VMAs comprised of 14 AV-8B aircraft each. When we transition VMA-211
we will reestablish the remaining five VMAs as 16-aircraft squadrons, allowing them to deploy as a full 16-plane squadron; a 10- and 6-plane (MEU) squadron; or an 8- and 8-plane (MEU) squadron.

Marine Av plan 2016

 

[Jura The idiot]

FY 2016 price

that's what you say, but

... it may be interesting to look into
Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller)
document

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at p. designated 1-7 (15 of 83 in PDF)
EDIT in Table F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
summarizing money actually spent LOL
Procurement (excluding R&D) cost ($m / # of aircraft):
2015 6675/38 = 176
2016 9476/68 = 139
2017 8286/63 = 132
(retyped, rounded by me)

 

[FORBIN]

Impossible a difference also important, so i see mainly 2 solutions :
- different method of calculation
- or with support or training... costs

What you think

 

[Jura The idiot]

Impossible a difference also important, so i see mainly 2 solutions :
- different method of calculation
- or with support or training... costs

What you think

you quote F-35 fanbois
I quote Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Chief Financial Officer

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[Brumby]

that's what you say, but

Per the document you provided, the cost per unit for the F-35A are $123 million and $116 million for FY2016 and FY2017 respectively.


In comparison, the source of Forbin's numbers (after adjustment for advance procurement) are $121 million and $113 million for FY2016 and FY2017 respectively. The two different sources are reasonably close in terms of pricing.



IMO, the prospect of achieving $80 million per unit on the F-35A by 2018/2019 is too unrealistic but $90 million per unit is probably achievable. This is comparable to the cost of a F-18 E/F but one is getting a lot of capabilities with the F-35.