F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
TerraN_EmpirE said:
First Brat I knew you would call me out. I was expecting it.

And I appreciate it. But there are points here.
First I was focusing in on a set of weapon types. Those being the Gun system and the Rocket systems. Which have changed some but not all that much. The Rocket system of the A10 is the Hydra 70 or 2.75 inch rocket unguided. That Rocket family evolved form the FFAR used in the F86 Saber.
Upgrades are coming to that system in the Form of the APKWS II which adds a guidance system.
The Gunnery of fighters is also not a laser beam here. the Avenger is good don't get me wrong and Gatling cannons are very very stable thanks to there rotation but the amount of control needed to nail a individual tank at more than a kilometer is not a easy task. The Pilot is lining up his aircraft to make that kill to
Factor in Improvements in Armor,
If we were talking a T55 Tank Absolutly a Gau 8 would liquidate the Tank Crew and then some. Heck the Gau 22 on the F35 would do that. Even Early model T72 and T80 but modern armor here Brat. Against your average IFV or ICV sure modern Armor though... That's a rough nut even for another Tank with a Far bigger round.

An Air attack with either the Gun or Rockets by an A10 is more going to come down to a act of desperation. Before a A10 Driver does that he is going to use another means of attack Options like Cluster munitions ( now out of favor) Classic iron bombs and then guided weapons the Maverick ( now out of favor), laser guided weapons, WCMD, SDB, JDAM and JSOW. What do these weapons do?
They give the A10 stand off and make it so that the A10 doesn't have to strafe a Target.
Basically they make it so that the A10 doesn't need to line up the Avenger or Rocket pod.

Oh and

That's just about what I said.

The Problem is That the Flying Tank is based around the Idea of making a Strafing attack to kill Tanks with the gun and Unguided weapons. The problem is that doing that is also lining up the A10 for ground fire. Sure they might light up a Tank or two but if doing that means Taking a Missile up the tail pipe. Is a 18.8 million Dollar bird and the Pilot worth it? For the bad guys A MANPAD that costs a fraction of that is a good deal.

The Evolution of the A10 has been away from using the Gun and Rockets as the main attack because doing that is so dangerous. Hell same reason why fighter on fighter gun kills are so rare. It's easier and cheaper to have a missile kill.
Sensor fusion and guided munitions were created specifically so that you don't need to build a machine like the A10. Missile systems like the Hellfire and JAGM are so that the Attacker can sit back 5 miles and kill tanks with out need of gunning or rocketing them. So that the Pilot doesn't need a Titanium bath tub. Between a mile of Altitude and and a Titanium bathtub Which will protect you better?


It's not just the Long and Intermediate range systems it's the improved SHORAD systems to. In the First Gulf war 6 A10s were lost due to SAMs and Triple A fire 2 of those are believed to have been MANPADS. In the second a another was lost again a SAM site. IF lining up a attack with the GAU 8 or Hydra 70 missiles means a greater chance of loosing the Aircraft and Pilot, Is the system really a cost effective reality???

Really don't care what my Mom knows but that's a bit personal. End of the Day. Here is my point The type of CAS the A10 was designed for back in the 1970's is not the Type of CAS it has been moving to over the past decades.
It did fine against forces who had been deployed with limited Air defense but as the threat of Close Air defense rises as systems like the SA-22 Greyhound and Type 95 SPAAA as well as S400 and S500 proliferate the Type of mission CAS the A10 was designed for the GAU 8 was designed for become far more dangerous and are increasingly handed off to Stand off range guided missiles and Weapons. As this happens the A10 is increasingly a weapon system that looses need of it's uniqueness and missions it does can be more and more handled just as well by other Fast mover Higher flying platforms starting with F16C, F15E and soon F35A.

The problem is some people think that CAS can only mean Charging the Enemy GAU 8 Blazing. From the Armor side of things Which is the point I was trying to make That makes him just as much a target. As a A10 in that attack can only take maybe 1 tank at a time. Well It's a rare thing to find a single tank on his own you are more likely to find a Tank Company who seeing a A10 wing lining up is going to open up with every weapon at there disposal. And between the two The ones who are more sensitive to damage is the guy in the Air. Because even if the fire don't kill him the sudden impact with the ground can. As opposed to the Crew on the ground who worst case will have to bail out of a burning the tank and walk home.
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All good points, but let's walk you into A-10 flight ups with your billboard, you are seriously underestimating those Air Force jet jockeys and their A-10. F-15s and F-16s do most of the high altitude stand off work, and face it, when "Charlie" is "danger close" there really are only two airplanes you want to be "delousing you!
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Brat, that's mostly down to reputation. If I am under fire I don't really care what is giving the bad guys something else to think about. It could be a piper cub loaded with guns and a bad attitude. What is really important is that the enemy is under another form of contact.
 
Air Force Brat

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
TerraN_EmpirE said:
Brat, that's mostly down to reputation. If I am under fire I don't really care what is giving the bad guys something else to think about. It could be a piper cub loaded with guns and a bad attitude. What is really important is that the enemy is under another form of contact.
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TerraN the A-10 has earned its reputation as a gunner, the F-35 wo ill is already earning its reputation as a "jack of all trades!

you wouldn't want to engage enemy fighters in an A-10, but those men and women who fly them have confidence that their bird will allow them to perform the mission they are assigned, the A-10 has and will continue to define "close air support"..

The F-35 on the other hand will be more than capable of engaging enemy fighters if it has too, and winning, as well as picking and choosing how to conduct the close air support mission.

I realize the A-10 is the past and the F-35 is the future, but in the interim we will need them both, and like the F-22 and the F-15, they are highly capable of interoperability....

Sorry to pick on you, you're one of Sino Defense Forums honored and accurate Senior Members, in fact I regard you in very close company with BDPopeye, Jeff Head, Siege Crossbow, and Deino,, in fact theres not a doubt in my mind that Webby should probably invite you onto the mod team...

I believe your point is that close air support is getting more and more dangerous, a point which I have been harping on as well, and if we had to choose between the venerable A-10 of the F-35, it would be a simple choice, but we don't and we shouldn't, until the F-35 is fully mature and able to perform 100% of its mission....
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Jura said:
tell this to a
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Who do you think would be guiding the weapon on target? giving GPS or Laser painting for a guided weapon?

I said low Altitude CAS. I didn't say CAS in General, Jura. The A10 was designed for Strafing runs yet those are the Danger they open the Aircraft and pilot for being attacked with SHORAD systems. Because Stand off Systems are just that Stand off range precision guided they need to be guided on to designated Targets by forces near said Targets.
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
TerraN_EmpirE said:
Who do you think would be guiding the weapon on target? giving GPS or Laser painting for a guided weapon?

I said low Altitude CAS. I didn't say CAS in General, Jura. The A10 was designed for Strafing runs yet those are the Danger they open the Aircraft and pilot for being attacked with SHORAD systems. Because Stand off Systems are just that Stand off range precision guided they need to be guided on to designated Targets by forces near said Targets.
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OK the F-35 wins the CAS using long-ranged weapons

it's kinda similar to the F-35 winning in the air using long-ranged AAMs

that's the future according to the Pentagon, and I have nothing more to say
 
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