F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
F-35As visit Mountain Home to test readiness

Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, Feb. 18, 2016. The F-35s are testing their combat capabilities through an operational deployment test at Mountain Home AFB range complexes.(U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman Jeremy L. Mosier/Released)

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
A bit too much anyway, possible a part of true for BVR combat especialy but it would be surprising he says otherwise...
And we know instructions USAF personnals have received

It was sure F-35 don' t beat F-22 in dogfight.

No Mr. Forbin, the USAF doesn't play those political games, and no the F-35 is not going to beat the F-22 in any kind of a BVR/WVR basis on a day to day routine, not gonna happen. BUT, I would remind all of you that I have been predicting that some smart F-35 driver is gonna get the drop on a not quite as sharp F-22 driver in a typical red flag exercise, and it may have already happened?? but I rather doubt it, I have been making this prediction for at least a year!

Mr. Bogdans comments are directed at the J-20, J-31, T-50, SU-27-SU-35s, J-10s through J-16s, Typhoons, Rafales, F-15s, F16s, and F-18s A through G, and yes the Growler is all noise, the F-35 is the real Ninja, and the Growler will die like everything else.

The F-22 remains the ONE true Fifth Gen platform as originally conceived, the most Stealthy, Agile, fastest supercruise, F-22 to F-22 communications are impeccable and seamless, so no the F-35 will not be taking the dominant role in the USAF, but it is Raptor Light, and it is so far ahead of the competition on an L/O, discreet networking, electronics, radar, weapons systems, it does scare the bad guys, and they must discredit it in order to convince their crew that they can beat it?? (they won't).

Mr. Head should get most of the credit here, he was and is an early proponent and knowledgeable of the F-35s true capabilities, I was educated by the Head Master, not vica-versa, ask Mr. Head about the F-22s true dominance. but I did make the prediction first, that an F-35 pilot, prolly one who has also flown the F-22, will make a confirmed kill on a Raptor, maybe on a limited ROE, or maybe due to that kool HMS??? It will happen, but day to day, the F-22 is the "Alien Bird", and while I trust Gen Bogdan implicitely, he was NOT making that claim against the F-22, just everything else!
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
A bit too much anyway, possible a part of true for BVR combat especialy but it would be surprising he says otherwise...
And we know instructions USAF personnals have received

It was sure F-35 don' t beat F-22 in dogfight.

and Mr. Forbin, the politicians in the USAF would love for the F-35 to beat the F-22, but it just won't happen on a day to day basis, and I do "know" what I'm talking about, or else I couldn't call myself the Air Force Brat!
 

Brumby

Major
No Mr. Forbin, the USAF doesn't play those political games, and no the F-35 is not going to beat the F-22 in any kind of a BVR/WVR basis on a day to day routine, not gonna happen. BUT, I would remind all of you that I have been predicting that some smart F-35 driver is gonna get the drop on a not quite as sharp F-22 driver in a typical red flag exercise, and it may have already happened?? but I rather doubt it, I have been making this prediction for at least a year!

Mr. Bogdans comments are directed at the J-20, J-31, T-50, SU-27-SU-35s, J-10s through J-16s, Typhoons, Rafales, F-15s, F16s, and F-18s A through G, and yes the Growler is all noise, the F-35 is the real Ninja, and the Growler will die like everything else.

The F-22 remains the ONE true Fifth Gen platform as originally conceived, the most Stealthy, Agile, fastest supercruise, F-22 to F-22 communications are impeccable and seamless, so no the F-35 will not be taking the dominant role in the USAF, but it is Raptor Light, and it is so far ahead of the competition on an L/O, discreet networking, electronics, radar, weapons systems, it does scare the bad guys, and they must discredit it in order to convince their crew that they can beat it?? (they won't).

Mr. Head should get most of the credit here, he was and is an early proponent and knowledgeable of the F-35s true capabilities, I was educated by the Head Master, not vica-versa, ask Mr. Head about the F-22s true dominance. but I did make the prediction first, that an F-35 pilot, prolly one who has also flown the F-22, will make a confirmed kill on a Raptor, maybe on a limited ROE, or maybe due to that kool HMS??? It will happen, but day to day, the F-22 is the "Alien Bird", and while I trust Gen Bogdan implicitely, he was NOT making that claim against the F-22, just everything else!

Actually the more complete content of the Bogdan interview and his reply was in respect of a question asked of him regarding the F-35 against the latest Russian planes. My comment regarding the F-22 was just a poke at Mr. Brat.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Actually the more complete content of the Bogdan interview and his reply was in respect of a question asked of him regarding the F-35 against the latest Russian planes. My comment regarding the F-22 was just a poke at Mr. Brat.

Thanks for the POKE Bubba, gave me a chance to set the record straight once again, and Chris Bogdan has poured heart and soul into getting this airplane up to speed, he has been "taking numbers and kicking axe" since day one on this thankless job. Lets not forget the ThunderHoggeII was on the ropes when Chris said, "I WILL get this bird right", He has a sound team, but I would hate to be on the receiving end of one of his "axe chewings", he's old school, to the point. Reminds me of one of my Dad's ER's from MACVSOG, when he worked as the Air Force Liaison for all in-country airlift, as well as MACV's MC-130E's. The statement on his ER was, "if you need something done right, assign Maj Dad to do the job", I never saw that until after his death, but he was a doer, and he hated excuses, and if I "thought" something, he was sure to ask me if I knew what "thought did"?

Thank you General Bogdan for having a heart, and being a man of your word! and Mr. Forbin, Air Force Pilots are the best there could possibly be, and fly the very best aircraft, F-22 and F-35s now. Navy pilot's as good as they are, spend a LOT of time learning to operate off the boat, and it is no doubt the hairiest thing that anybody does in an aircraft? but that time is not devoted to learning how to kill bad guys, and their bosses put their "bad bird" out to pasture, and adopted the Hornet and Super Hornet, and declined a NAVAL version of ATF.

They have been told to buy more F-35Cs, and have kinda drug their feet, they are happy to tell you the F-35 is the last manned fighter, and they love their pilot-less, tailless aircraft??? The Air Force on the other hand?? has pilots and a tails on their six gen, they are fully committed to the "flying business"

So no, the F-35 boys will have to work their butts off to ever "draw on the F-22, nobody is gonna throw a fight in he USAF, its just not gonna happen.

And before anybody suggests the AFB has been less than fair to Naval Aviators, nobody on this forum has more respect for what they do every day, they have "NADS" of steel, they just don't have the time, but they will soon have the best aircraft, in the F-35C, and NO ONE will be happier than those Naval Aviators. They will once again be back in best bird for the job, and the C will be my favorite, sorry A bird?
 

Brumby

Major
So no, the F-35 boys will have to work their butts off to ever "draw on the F-22, nobody is gonna throw a fight in he USAF, its just not gonna happen.
You should have more confidence in the F-22. When I first saw that statement by Bogdan I thought there has to be more to it than at face value. Having said that, the prospect of what it would mean to pit a F-22 vs F-35 in BVR is a very interesting proposition. This is uncharted territory and I would think it is an even bet either way. Officially no such scenario is on record but I would suspect they are busy studying the results and in determining new tactics for stealth vs stealth. Bottom line is training, tactics and platform matters.
 

Brumby

Major
“Here’s what I’ve learned so far dogfighting in the F-35”: a JSF pilot’s first-hand account

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I now have several sorties behind me in the F-35 where the mission has been to train within visual range combat one-on-one, or «Basic Fighter Maneuvers» (BFM).
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and about the likelihood that the F-35 would ever end up in such a situation. In this post, however, I write more specifically about my experiences with the F-35 when it does end up in a dogfight. Again, I use the F-16 as my reference. As an F-35-user I still have a lot to learn, but I am left with several impressions. For now my conclusion is that this is an airplane that allows me to be more forward and aggressive than I could ever be in an F-16.

I’ll start by talking a little about how we train BFM. This particular situation – a dogfight one-on-one between two airplanes – may be more or less likely to occur, as I have
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Nonetheless, this kind of training is always important, because it builds fundamental pilot skills. In this kind of training we usually start out from defined parameters, with clearly offensive, defensive or neutral roles. This kind of disciplined approach to the basic parameters is important, because it makes it easier to extract learning in retrospect – a methodical approach to train for air combat.

A typical training setup begins at a distance of one, two or three kilometers from the attacker to the defender. The minimum distance is 300 meters. That kind of restriction may seem conservative, but 300 meters disappears quickly in a combat aircraft. Starting at different distances allows us to vary the focus of each engagement. Greater distance means more energy, higher g-loads and often ends in a prolonged engagement. A short distance usually means that the main objective is to practice gun engagements, either attacking or defending.

Before the training begins, we always check whether we are “fit for fight”; will I be able to withstand the g-load today? «G-awareness exercise» implies two relatively tight turns, with gradually increasing g-load. My experience is that especially dehydration, but also lack of sleep affects g-tolerance negatively. If someone has a «bad g-day», we adjust the exercises accordingly and avoid high g-loads.

As the offensive part, the training objective is to exploit every opportunity to kill your opponent with all available weapons – both missiles and guns – while maneuvering towards a stable position behind the opponent. From this «control position» it is possible to effectively employ both missiles and the gun, without the opponent being able to evade or return fire.

So how does the F-35 behave in a dogfight? The offensive role feels somewhat different from what I am used to with the F-16. In the F-16, I had to be more patient than in the F-35, before pointing my nose at my opponent to employ weapons; pointing my nose and employing, before being safely established in the control position, would often lead to a role reversal, where the offensive became the defensive part.

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Classic maneuvering towards the control position with an F-16 (blue arrow); the offensive aircraft moves to reduce the difference in angle, and to end up behind its opponent.

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The offensive (blue arrow) choses a too aggressive approach, and ends up being neutralized by its opponent.

The F-35 provides me as a pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane where I desire. (The F-35 is capable of significantly higher Angle of Attack (AOA) than the F-16. Angle of Attack describes the angle between the longitudinal axis of the plane – where nose is pointing – and where the aircraft is actually heading – the vector). This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, it forces my opponent to react even more defensively, and it gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16.

Update: Since I first wrote this post, I have flown additional sorties where I tried an even more aggressive approach to the control position – more aggressive than I thought possible. It worked just fine. The F-35 sticks on like glue, and it is very difficult for the defender to escape.

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Maneuvering towards the control position with an F-35 (blue arrow) the offensive party can allow a greater difference in angle (more on the side than behind, and still remain established in the control position.

It may be difficult to understand why a fighter should be able to «brake» quickly. In the offensive role, this becomes important whenever I point my nose at an opponent who turns towards me. This results in a rapidly decreasing distance between our two airplanes. Being able to slow down quicker provides me the opportunity to maintain my nose pointed towards my opponent longer, thus allowing more opportunities to employ weapons, before the distance decreases so much that a role reversal takes place.

To sum it up, my experience so far is that the F-35 makes it easier for me to maintain the offensive role, and it provides me more opportunities to effectively employ weapons at my opponent.
For the rest of the article pls refer to provided link due to word limitation.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Not sure if this has been posted before, as I don't follow this thread very much, but here is an interesting piece I stumbled upon that should delight some and annoy others, depending on your stance on the F35. ;)

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(you need to scroll down some way to get to the English parts)

I won't quote the whole thing, but it is well worth the read, I will, however focus on a segment that I find most interesting.

The F-35 provides me as a pilot greater authority to point the nose of the airplane where I desire. (The F-35 is capable of significantly higher Angle of Attack (AOA) than the F-16. Angle of Attack describes the angle between the longitudinal axis of the plane – where nose is pointing – and where the aircraft is actually heading – the vector). This improved ability to point at my opponent enables me to deliver weapons earlier than I am used to with the F-16, it forces my opponent to react even more defensively, and it gives me the ability to reduce the airspeed quicker than in the F-16.

Update: Since I first wrote this post, I have flown additional sorties where I tried an even more aggressive approach to the control position – more aggressive than I thought possible. It worked just fine. The F-35 sticks on like glue, and it is very difficult for the defender to escape.

Man%C3%B8vrering-3-e1456736028982-1024x479.jpg

Maneuvering towards the control position with an F-35 (blue arrow) the offensive party can allow a greater difference in angle (more on the side than behind, and still remain established in the control position.

It may be difficult to understand why a fighter should be able to «brake» quickly. In the offensive role, this becomes important whenever I point my nose at an opponent who turns towards me. This results in a rapidly decreasing distance between our two airplanes. Being able to slow down quicker provides me the opportunity to maintain my nose pointed towards my opponent longer, thus allowing more opportunities to employ weapons, before the distance decreases so much that a role reversal takes place.

To sum it up, my experience so far is that the F-35 makes it easier for me to maintain the offensive role, and it provides me more opportunities to effectively employ weapons at my opponent.

In the defensive role the same characteristics are valuable. I can «whip» the airplane around in a reactive maneuver while slowing down. The F-35 can actually slow down quicker than you´d be able to emergency brake your car. This is important because my opponent has to react to me «stopping, or risk ending up in a role-reversal where he flies past me. (Same principle as many would have seen in Top Gun; «hit the brakes, and he’ll fly right by.» But me quoting Top Gun does not make the movie a documentary)

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An F-35 flying at a high angle of attack during testing in 2012. This clearly shows how the nose is angled away from the aircraft direction of travel. Photo: Lockheed Martin

Defensive situations often result in high AOA and low airspeeds. At high AOA the F-16 reacts slowly when I move the stick sideways to roll the airplane. The best comparison I can think of is being at the helm of ship (without me really knowing what I am talking about – I’m not a sailor). Yet another quality of the F-35 becomes evident in this flight regime; using the rudder pedals I can command the nose of the airplane from side to side. The F-35 reacts quicker to my pedal inputs than the F-16 would at its maximum AOA (the F-16 would actually be out of control at this AOA). This gives me an alternate way of pointing the airplane where I need it to, in order to threaten an opponent. This «pedal turn» yields an impressive turn rate, even at low airspeeds. In a defensive situation, the «pedal turn» provides me the ability to rapidly neutralize a situation, or perhaps even reverse the roles entirely.
...
I’m also impressed by how quickly the F-35 accelerates when I reduce the AOA. High AOA produces lots of lift, but also tremendous induced drag. When I «break» the AOA, it is evident that the F-35 has a powerful engine.

Now, I know there is the whole energy vs nose pointing philosophical split between the fighter pilot and designer community.

And I fully understand and agree with the points the pilot made about the benefits of being able to brake rapidly, in both offensive and defensive scenarios. And as the pilot noted the F35 has impressive acceleration, which should help to offset the negatives of loosing energy so fast.

But at the same time, I am more than a little alarmed by this heavy emphasis on how "well" the F35 can loose airspeed (and energy).

Maybe it's just my philosophical preference speaking, but I thought nose pointing at the expense of energy (or vice versa) was a distinctly 3rd gen approach to fighter design, with 4th gen fighters (Eurocanards, J10) stressing transonic agility, where a fighter can turn quickly at speed and not loose too much of it's speed doing so.

A tradition which was continued and improved upon by the F22, and almost certainly the J20 (not sure where the PAKFA stand in this regard).

Thus, while the F35's superior nose pointing ability to the F16 is a positive, the fact that it comes at the expense of such serve energy loss does not seem like as clearly a great thing as the pilot in that blog is making it out to be.

In a 1 v 1, loosing all airspeed in order to achieve the kill is no biggy, but in a massed fur ball, are you not just setting yourself up as a sitting duck for someone else if you do that?

Given the trend of ever more agile and higher off-broadside capable WVRAAMs, is it really necessary to point your nose that much in WVR when you can just point your head?
 
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